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For those who raise on 3...

#1 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 22:07



For those who aggressively raise partner's major on 3 trumps, is this the right hand for it? By which, I mean, my understanding is that by bidding 2 and then taking the 2 preference back to spades you show a stronger hand than with a direct raise on 3 trumps, is this too strong for a direct 2 with this shape, or is this a max 2 call?
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#2 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 22:18

For me this is too strong and I would start with 2C.
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#3 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 00:33

This is definitely too strong, perfect for the 2C .. 2S route.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#4 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 00:55

How much weaker would it have to be before it would be a max 2 call in your opinion? If the diamonds and clubs were reversed, and you opened 1, would this still be too strong for 2? Or would you anticipate this problem, open 1 anyway, and go through the 2 - delayed raise sequence?
Chris Gibson
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#5 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 06:08

Switch the minors and I would reverse with this hand. I don't think that it is close, after partner's 1S bid our hand has become really good. I would not reverse after 1C - 1H.

How much weaker do we need to be before bidding 2S? Axx x KJ9xx AJ10x would be a clear 2S bid for me, a nice 13-count. Make the club jack the queen and I think I would already bid 2C.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#6 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 07:21

AT MP where streatching to reach game is not a huge consideration
I can see rebidding 2c and agreeing that 2s is an underbid.

AT IMPS
we seem to agree that if the minors were reversed we would
reverse after a 1s response to show the extra potential of our
hand. Using the same logic---bidding a NF 2c seems to go
against that line of reasoning by showing a hand that can be
dramatically weaker than ours. It seems to be a rather large risk
to take.

3h splinter


this might steer us wrong from time to time (when we belong in 5c
mostly) but it eliminates the risk of us being passed out in 2c when
we have an ice cold 4s hand. The 3h bid also gets us off to a great
start for any slamming we might do. If we reach 3/4s we just tell p
they needed some moysian practice for the next big tournament.
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#7 User is offline   Flem72 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 08:13

K-S: 2C rebid followed by S raise is automatic -- of course, 2C rebid is forcing, which I also like.
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#8 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 08:17

Quote

bidding a NF 2c seems to go
against that line of reasoning by showing a hand that can be
dramatically weaker than ours. It seems to be a rather large risk
to take.


It doesn't.
In standard 2C is 11-17hcp while 2S is 11-14hcp. Partner won't pass 2C as readily as he would pass 2S.

Quote

3h splinter


This is terrible. Splinter should promise 4 card support here. You will go overboard with 3 trumps here as partner will often count 1 trick more for slam.

Quote

the risk of us being passed out in 2c when
we have an ice cold 4s hand


This is improbable, especially if you play some kind of reverse flannery to eliminate weak 5S-4H hands from 1S. Partner will strive to bid after 2C knowing our range is wide.
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#9 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 11:39

View Posthan, on 2012-June-07, 06:08, said:

Switch the minors and I would reverse with this hand. I don't think that it is close, after partner's 1S bid our hand has become really good. I would not reverse after 1C - 1H.

How much weaker do we need to be before bidding 2S? Axx x KJ9xx AJ10x would be a clear 2S bid for me, a nice 13-count. Make the club jack the queen and I think I would already bid 2C.


Switching the minors, there is a lot to be said about reversing followed by supporting pd.

This maybe interpreted much different than you expect. I know a lot of people who plays this the strongest hand possible, which was too good to start with splinter.

Without agreements and switched minors, we will have to lie one way or the other. Whether that would be opening 1, raising to 2 or 3 , rebidding or reversing.

-Splintering with this is out of question for me.
-Opening 1 may save us in this board (though not neccesarilly), however it puts a burden on pdship where we get paranoid each time pd opens 1 and rebids 2, which is pretty annoying
-Raising to 2 is an underbid as we all agreed.
-Raising to 3 with 3 card fit is odd, but delivers the strength better than 2. I would not do it though.
-Bidding 2 is wider range for me than most other people. It is like 11-16. I would not do it either.
-Reversing is reasonable if pd knows you arent telling tales of a giant hand.
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#10 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 11:46

Either I misunderstand your post or you are thoroughly confused. Are you saying that an auction like

1C - 1S
2D - something
2/3S (2S if partner bids 2H)

shows a hand too strong to splinter?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#11 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 12:14

View Posthan, on 2012-June-07, 11:46, said:

Either I misunderstand your post or you are thoroughly confused. Are you saying that an auction like

1C - 1S
2D - something
2/3S (2S if partner bids 2H)

shows a hand too strong to splinter?


I am not saying what it shows. It shows whatever you agreed that it shows. But yes, it is a treatment among some players that this shows a giant.

1C-1S
2D-2S/3D
3S

I have seen people doing it with hands like

AJTx
void
AKx
AKxxxx

There are hands where you start with one, but pd's response may upgrade your hand to 2 club opener and you dont have a comfortable limit bid. And splinter doesnt seem right.I think the void + 6th club adds a lot compared to average splinter hand. You can make your own example if you dont like this one of course. It may even be a fake reverse as in this example. (For those who plays it, it usually is 3 card reverse suit if followed by supporting you.)

Not something that i am a fan of though. But without agreement, i would never reverse and then support you for example.

I dont know which is worse;

-To make an underbid and bid 2 with the current hand, or
-To reverse and then support him, which is forcing i assume (and i hope) and drag his @$$ to the game at these days where 1 response can be done on a dime.

Unless of course you can convince me that, you have magical ways to tell your pd that your reverse followed by support was made by 15 hcp this hand and not 19 hcp, where he knows when to stop in partscore or when to stop in game only when there is no slam.

You will not have this luxury though

1C-1S
2D-2NT (neg bid)
3S

1C-1S
2D-2S
3S

How is he supposed to know if you are 15 or 21 hcp ?

You and i will not have this issue though, since we play 4th suit or 2 NT, whichever is cheaper, as negative response after reverse.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity is boundless"
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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 12:20

I don't think that
1-1
2-2
3
is forcing. It just shows a 3145 or 3136 15-count.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#13 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 12:32

View PostMrAce, on 2012-June-07, 12:14, said:

I dont know which is worse;

-To make an underbid and bid 2 with the current hand, or
-To reverse and then support him, which is forcing i assume (and i hope) and drag his @$$ to the game at these days where 1 response can be done on a dime.

Unless of course you can convince me that, you have magical ways to tell your pd that your reverse followed by support was made by 15 hcp this hand and not 19 hcp, where he knows when to stop in partscore or when to stop in game only when there is no slam.

You will not have this luxury though

1C-1S
2D-2NT (neg bid)
3S

1C-1S
2D-2S
3S

How is he supposed to know if you are 15 or 21 hcp ?

You and i will not have this issue though, since we play 4th suit or 2 NT, whichever is cheaper, as negative response after reverse.



Why do you think reversing then supporting partner is forcing? If you have the archetypal 3145 you have 3 different ways of showing it after, say,
1C - 1S
2D - 2S

you can bid 3S, showing 3-card support, minimum reverse, non-forcing
you can bid 4S, showing 3-card support, not a minimum reverse, non-forcing
you can bid 4H, showing 3-card support, good hand

all 3 of these bids show the heart shortage (by inference) so all that distinguishes them is strength.
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#14 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 12:46

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2012-June-07, 12:32, said:

Why do you think reversing then supporting partner is forcing? If you have the archetypal 3145 you have 3 different ways of showing it after, say,
1C - 1S
2D - 2S

you can bid 3S, showing 3-card support, minimum reverse, non-forcing
you can bid 4S, showing 3-card support, not a minimum reverse, non-forcing
you can bid 4H, showing 3-card support, good hand

all 3 of these bids show the heart shortage (by inference) so all that distinguishes them is strength.


You can do that of course if you are willing to play 4 each and everytime regardless of what your pd holds in the majors. When opponents are silent. I dont like any treatment that requires me to jump to game with less than 4 card support or decent 3 card support.

Knowing what you have will not help him to go down (with friendly trump split that is) when he can make 3 NT, or
Knowing what you have will not help him to figure if it is safe or not to seek slam and commit to 5 level when he holds

Qxxxx
xxxx
x
Axx

after all you may as well bid 4 (or 4) with

AKx
x
AJxx
KQJxx

Kxx
x
AKQx
KQJxx i think this is awful place to be at 5 level

And none of the suggestions you made says anything about heart suit being stiff or void, which is way more important imo than you telling your pd that you have couple more beans or not. In my dream pdship i would like to play these bids you suggested for delivering info about my first 2 suits besides fit. Or void vs stiff.

You can go head and construct auctions where you can stop in partscore AFTER reverse and AFTER finding an 8 card major fit.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity is boundless"
"Gosh given your bbf manner would love to see your teaching LOL if i was a novice i'd be running a million miles from you" - Eagles123
Disclaimer: this post is not intended to offend anyone who spews constant drivel. --PhilKing





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