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Where did this go wrong?

#1 User is offline   SimonFa 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 12:28

I won't ask for ATB because I reckon I should have bid a lot better than I did.

MPs, all white:

J
KQ3
KJ3
AT7642


A853
J6
AQ54
KQJ

(P) 1C (2C*) X
(P) P (2H) 3H
(P) 4C (P) 5C
All pass

*Michaels

My 3H was just noise to get partner to bid again. I did consider doubling at that point or punting no trumps as it was hard to see partner having an opening hand and no heart stop, but RHO put me off by showing preference for hearts.

6C and 6NT made but most of the field punted for 3NT making 6, so I got 10% and considering I finished with 50% it was a costly error :angry: .

As always, thanks in advance,

Simon
Still looking for a regular real world partner to play 2/1 or SAYC in Dorset area, willing to travel.
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#2 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 12:44

I don't have any strong feelings about this auction until the final bid. Over 4 responder should bid 4. Clearly 4 is a cue bid - with real diamonds responder could have bid them earlier. When responder bids 4, opener will cue hearts (assuming the partnership allows 1st & 2nd round cues) and responder will cue spades. Slam should certainly be reached.

Quite frankly, you could just punt 6 based on the fact that playing in 5 is likely to be a poor score. But that is another issue entirely.

Going back further in the auction, the initial double of 2 is the ultimate source of the problem. Responder really doesn't intend to penalize 2 holding Axxx unless partner can hit it, and that is certainly unlikely. And responder has no interest in penalizing 2. But I have sympathy for the double in that no alternative call is truly right. You have to do something, and double is not the worst thing in the world.

Another point is that responder could have cue bid 2 rather than 3 at his second turn to call. Opener might bid 3NT which is certainly better than 5. Responder could have also passed over 2. Opener is not permitted to pass out 2 undoubled after the initial double of 2.
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#3 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 13:21

I don't understand 3H, I would be very happy if partner doubled 2H. Did you bid 3H because you were afraid that partner would pass?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#4 User is offline   SimonFa 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 13:23

View Posthan, on 2012-June-06, 13:21, said:

I don't understand 3H, I would be very happy if partner doubled 2H. Did you bid 3H because you were afraid that partner would pass?


Yes, it was the strongest bid I could thinks of.
Still looking for a regular real world partner to play 2/1 or SAYC in Dorset area, willing to travel.
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#5 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 14:01

2 is obviously better than 3, if you don't have agreements about wich one to cue at least it gives you more room.

raising 4m to 5m on a forcing sequence should be forbidden, I mean its so hopeless I have problems to stress how awful it is with words. I see intermediate players doing it ll the time (sadly sitting in front of me) and it might normally end in 2 ways: a direct bottom, or a blind guess from partner.
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#6 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 14:37

1? Obviously

X? Seems right

Pass #1 by Opener? This seems impractical, to me. I would bid 3, myself, and announce my hand. But, OK.

3? I do not understand this call. 2 is presumably forcing. Frankly, if you have three cuebids available below 3NT, like here, I would prefer a method where 2 is non-committal and 3/3 are splinters, or where 2 agrees clubs but 3/3 ask for 3NT (and I prefer the school where you bid where you live in the two-cue situation, such that 3 would show heart stuff and ask about spade stuff). But, if 2 is non-committal but 3 asks for a stopper, then OK, but then Opener probably should cooperate and bid 3NT.

4? This seems really dumb. Will Opener never show his hand? I mean, if you want to bid past 3NT, jump to 4 and show the stiff at least now. 4 sounds like long clubs (check), a weakish hand (wrong), no heart stopper (really wrong), and no shortness (wrong).

5? If you think partner has no heart shortness (would have bid 4 after 3 if he didn't bid 3 after the double) and that partner has no heart stopper (duh), then what else would you do, when you know that the opponents will cash two hearts and then you can probably claim the rest? Bid 4NT and hope that the opponents never lead a heart?
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 15:13

I'll get back to you when I work out which hand opened 1, the auction doesn't make a lot of sense in either case, it's a lot easier if you use the hand editor.

How many clubs were shown initially ?
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#8 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 01:16

View PostSimonFa, on 2012-June-06, 13:23, said:

Yes, it was the strongest bid I could thinks of.


From your post it is not clear whether you understood what I meant to say. I'm saying that you should pass over 2H if pass is forcing.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#9 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 05:42

You need partnership agreements what to do over 2
As it is hard to show such a strong balanced hand, a double looks fine.
Partners pass, well okay, 3 Spade is a stretch but maybe much better.
3 is evil. If pass is not forcing (it should be), 2 surely is- and shows at least one feature of the hand.
3 as noise is awful. If you need a bid for just noise, took always the cheapest bid.
But even better: define these cuebids as stopper showing or something else.
4 , well, partner allready showed a weak hand, so maybe 4 is stronger then 5? Or less long? I have no idea, but maybe this is because the 3 was so awful.
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#10 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 06:21

try to provide info on specific bid meanings if available for ex
what did the x of 2c mean?? My favorite is it asks p if they have
a short major (which would work exceedingly well here) if the
x has no specific meaning it might be best if opener bid 3c
which at least helps show the difference btn a boring balanced
hand and your 1336 (not even minimum) hand. With hands
in your minimum range try and get them described early in the
bidding--if you delay (principle of fast arrival) it shows a stronger
hand. for ex

1c 2c x p
p 2h x 3h
4c

is stronger than a hand that bids 3c over the original x

the bidding might have gone

1c 2c x p (no further intereference)
3c 3s
3n 4c (slam interest)
4d 4s (p was obviously concerned about heart control)
6c this shows 2nd round heart control p can convert to 6n if they wish
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#11 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 06:29

View Postkenrexford, on 2012-June-06, 14:37, said:

4? This seems really dumb. Will Opener never show his hand? I mean, if you want to bid past 3NT, jump to 4 and show the stiff at least now. 4 sounds like long clubs (check), a weakish hand (wrong), no heart stopper (really wrong), and no shortness (wrong).

I second this nomination for worst bid of the auction, even though 3 was pretty bad.
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#12 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 12:17

I think 2 stands out in the 2nd round instead of 3 . It can't be a real suit since the opponent has advertised a 5-5 major hand. So, it must be a stopper.

At MPs with minor hands, you want to keep 3 NT in the picture as a possible game contract. 2 does that because it's highly unlikely that partner has a spade stopper. On this hand, it enables partner to bid 3 NT (which is probably how the majority of the pairs playing 3 NT got there). If partner instead finds a 3 bid, tending to deny a good heart stopper, you can bid 3 asking for a partial stopper. That would enable you to find a good 3 NT game when partner holds something like K Qxx KJx A10xxxx.

2 also keeps open both 3 and 4 as rebids so partner can differentiate between unbalanced club hands.
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#13 User is offline   Quantumcat 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 18:48

Main thing is you forgot that after you double, the auction is forcing to SOMETHING - maybe game, but at least to 3 of partner's suit or to the opps being doubled.

The double of 2 says you have some values and want to penalise at least one of their suits - not sure if you really want to penalise spades but that's up to you. In any case, after doubling, partner HAS to bid. So you pass 2 to say you can't penalise this suit, and wait to see if partner can. If he can't double, then whatever his rebid is, it should be enlightening.

Here, it will probably be 3, over which you will bid 3, which must be a cue, because you would have shown a diamond over 2 (depending what you play - one of their suits is a cue-raise, the other should show the fourth suit). Even if you have a good penalty of one of their suits, if you have a long suit you should definitely prefer to show it - it would be silly to penalise the opps when you have a nine or ten card fit that you never knew about (you are unlikely to take more than one trick in this suit - if you have the ace).

Opener will feel a little cheered by your 3 bid, his hand is looking better (singleton spade, 2nd round heart control, king in a suit pard has the ace), but he can't Blackwood (he needs 3 keycards - a response of 2 keycards will be above 5), so he bids 3.

Now you as responder get quite excited, you only need one keycard for slam, unless opener is being co-operative with no keycards AND you play 1430, there can't be any harm in keycarding, so you do, and find one keycard. So you bid 6.
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