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5-6 Reds Over a negative double

#1 User is offline   kriegel 

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Posted 2012-May-31, 18:20



Matchpoints, standard negative double, 6+ points, 4+ hearts. Your bid?
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#2 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-May-31, 18:25

I'll start with 2s

give pard only AQxx in h and we have chances to make somthing.
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#3 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-May-31, 18:27

Nice hand! I'm starting with 3 and I'm probably RKCing over 4.
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#4 User is offline   the_clown 

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Posted 2012-May-31, 19:36

3. This 100% agrees and after the possible 4 by overcaller I can RKCB. If I start by 2 partner could think that I have a very big hand in the minors when I bid 4N so I dont want to risk a misunderstanding.
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#5 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-June-01, 07:00

I would prefer to splinter in clubs, but since it is not possible I will go with 3. Oh wait, I had opened 1 , nevermind.
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#6 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-June-01, 08:33

Had to do a double-take on the hand as it looked a bit like the other 1561 in the "which transfer to make" thread. But no, this one is MUCH bigger.

The issue with going 4C is that partner is almost certainly going to bid 4H because we have both top diamonds. We're not going to find out anything useful. Hence I think 2S and see what happens.

ahydra
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-June-01, 09:56

View Postahydra, on 2012-June-01, 08:33, said:

Had to do a double-take on the hand as it looked a bit like the other 1561 in the "which transfer to make" thread. But no, this one is MUCH bigger.

The issue with going 4C is that partner is almost certainly going to bid 4H because we have both top diamonds. We're not going to find out anything useful. Hence I think 2S and see what happens.

ahydra

The issue with going 4 is that it shows a very shapely minor 2-suiter, which isn't what you have. Thinking it is a splinter is allowing what you want it to mean to overcome what bridge logic dictates it must mean.

I would start with 2 since I don't want to jam my auction via 3. Even if 3 unambiguously agreed hearts (and does it?), I don't see that we are any further ahead by making that call.....I expect to agree hearts at the 3-level, having already forced to game.
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#8 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-June-02, 01:37

View Postahydra, on 2012-June-01, 08:33, said:

The issue with going 4C is that partner is almost certainly going to bid 4H because we have both top diamonds. We're not going to find out anything useful.

Then we bid 4 and we have shown a few useful things.
A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem – Albert Einstein
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#9 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-June-02, 03:10

View Postmikeh, on 2012-June-01, 09:56, said:

The issue with going 4 is that it shows a very shapely minor 2-suiter, which isn't what you have. Thinking it is a splinter is allowing what you want it to mean to overcome what bridge logic dictates it must mean.

I would start with 2 since I don't want to jam my auction via 3. Even if 3 unambiguously agreed hearts (and does it?), I don't see that we are any further ahead by making that call.....I expect to agree hearts at the 3-level, having already forced to game.


Really? Usually I am the one in favour of bids being natural, but if you play (as indicated in the OP) that x just promises 4+ hearts, then as far as I am concerned we bid as if partner has responded 1H to 1D in which case 3C is game forcing with the minors and 4C is a splinter.

THis isn't the same as, say, 1D 1S x 2S 4C when you need 4C as the minors because 3C is non-forcing.
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#10 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2012-June-03, 15:36

2 to give partner partner the most room to show what he/she holds.

This is a hand where opener needs to captain the auction and ask the questions.
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#11 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2012-June-04, 00:30

Frances, I don't know about you but I have the agreement with partner that over interference we don't splinter in suits that haven't been shown. This comes up most often in the example 1 - (2) , where 4 by responder is a splinter and 3 / 4 are Fit-showing raises. Since a jump to 4 is impossible for a FSJ in the given auction, I would take it as a freak with the minors (they are going to bid Spades like crazy).

Another reason for not using 4 as a splinter is because partner won't appreciate his hand nearly as much. Just cuebid 2, and save the room that 3 wastes. Besides, I use a treatment that here, 3 is a puppet to 3NT to play (thanks to JLall). You could also throw other type GF raises in here as well if you aren't afraid of memory issues.

Of course, this is all moot because I will open this hand 1. I play 5-card Majors, and KJ9xx is clearly a biddable suit.
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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-June-04, 02:11

View Postchasetb, on 2012-June-04, 00:30, said:

Frances, I don't know about you but I have the agreement with partner that over interference we don't splinter in suits that haven't been shown. This comes up most often in the example 1 - (2) , where 4 by responder is a splinter and 3 / 4 are Fit-showing raises. Since a jump to 4 is impossible for a FSJ in the given auction, I would take it as a freak with the minors (they are going to bid Spades like crazy).

Bridge agreements should be founded on logic, not rules. If our analysis leads to a rule, that's fine, but we shouldn't let dogma overrule logic.

In a contested sequence where partner has bid a suit, the opponents have bid a suit, and you have not yet shown any suit, such as 1-(2) or (1)-1-(pass), it's useful to be able to show a raise with a strong side-suit, and such hands occur quite frequently. Hence we play fit-jumps in that category of auction.

In a sequence where three suits have been bid around the table, such as 1-(1)-dbl-(pass), a jump in the remaining suit isn't useful as a fit-bid, because such a hand can be shown via a splinter in the enemy suit. Hence we should find some other meaning for 4.

At this point in the analysis, you seem to be saying "New-suit splinters don't apply in contested auctions, so it can't be one of those". Instead, we should be saying "What's the most useful meaning for 4?" I think the answer to that is clearly "A splinter": RHO hasn't raised spades, so it's quite likely that opener is 3451 or 2461.

Quote

Another reason for not using 4 as a splinter is because partner won't appreciate his hand nearly as much.

That might be a reason for not splintering on this hand; it's not a reason for not playing 4 as a splinter. If you had Ax KJ9x AK10xxx x and you had a splinter available, why wouldn't you make one?
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#13 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-June-04, 05:40

Completely agree with Phil's argument for bidding 3S and the English arguments for playing 4C as a splinter.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#14 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-June-04, 17:52

View Postchasetb, on 2012-June-04, 00:30, said:

Of course, this is all moot because I will open this hand 1. I play 5-card Majors, and KJ9xx is clearly a biddable suit.

I think it's strong enough to reverse, regardless of how many cards 1 promises B-)
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#15 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-June-05, 06:30

This hand has become so good that I am searching for a grand
and starting with 4n. This should eliminate all doubt immediately
about having a heart fit. If p shows me 2 with the Q I am bidding
7h --2 w/o the q and I am settling for 6h If p shows 1 (assuming
I am playing 1430 when hearts are trumps I will bid 5d and be happy
with 6h if p has the Q.
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#16 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-June-05, 08:36

View Postgszes, on 2012-June-05, 06:30, said:

This hand has become so good that I am searching for a grand
and starting with 4n. This should eliminate all doubt immediately
about having a heart fit.

I think it undoubtelly denies a heart fit so in a sense you are right :): it clarifies that we don't have it.
On a good day 4NT +1 will be the top for the board


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#17 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 08:13

In general I agree with you Fluff, but could you give me an example of a hand that bids 4NT without a heart fit? I have to warn you though, I will disagree with your example.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#18 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 08:20

View Posthan, on 2012-June-07, 08:13, said:

In general I agree with you Fluff, but could you give me an example of a hand that bids 4NT without a heart fit? I have to warn you though, I will disagree with your example.


I suposed someone would say something like that, the answer I though was: give me an example of a hand that would bid 4NT with heart fit with 2 and 3 avaible :)
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#19 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 08:38

4NT is any hand with a heart fit and that only wants to know how many keycards partner has (usually long clubs and a heart fit, spades and diamond controlled). I don't know what kind of hand would want to bid a quantitative 4NT. Of course not 18-19 balanced, and then what is left? You can start 2 or bid 3NT with some mega club hand without 4 hearts.
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#20 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 08:47

2 followed by big black will set as trumps most often unless pard supports next but keycard on either suit gets me where I want to go.
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
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