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Sacramento swiss 1 4 over 4?

#1 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2012-June-05, 11:08


Imps. 1 promised 4+ diamonds or 4432. Double showed exactly four spades.
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#2 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-June-05, 11:22

4S .... It might make or might be a good save .
Don Stenmark
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#3 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 00:14

I would pass, my hand is close enough to what partner expected from the double, so why should I make the final descission?
Kind Regards

Roland


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#4 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 06:04

bidding goes 1d 1h and you hold

Qxxx xxx QJx Kxx

do you make a neg x? that is what a min neg x
hand looks like. Yours has the same power but
the singleton heart makes your hand very much
better from an offensive standpoint. If p freely bids
2s your side cannot be far from making 4s. Think
of the 4s bid as insurance at IMPS. Your downside
passing 4h can be say -420 by bidding 4s -100 is
the worst case scenario. How much better does
4s look when you make it +420 vs -420 is a rather
huge swing.
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#5 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 07:38

I did not envisioned enough hands, you convinced me that 4 is right, despite the fact that the worse cast could be much worse- two non making contracts f.e...
Kind Regards

Roland


Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
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#6 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 10:20

I took the push to 4 without thinking much about it. The stiff heart and helpful diamond pushers looked good and my tendency is to be aggressive in bidding 4 over 4. But perhaps this is too aggressive? Partner viewed this as a LOTT problem; it looks like there are 17 trumps so if 4 is making then 4 rates to be down a lot. Makes sense to me. Anyway, I'm interested in hearing more opinions. Thanks!
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#7 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 01:24

17 total tricks is probably a good guess, could be 18.

I don't think that bidding 4S is a good idea when you expect it to be -300 or -500. Sometimes 4H will be down.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#8 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 02:18

View Posthan, on 2012-June-07, 01:24, said:

17 total tricks is probably a good guess, could be 18.

I don't think that bidding 4S is a good idea when you expect it to be -300 or -500. Sometimes 4H will be down.


Sometimes 4= and they bid on to 5 and go off one. Yes it will suck if we collect -300 or -500 against air; but there are other ways to win too. I'm not convinced 4 is best, but it certainly is what I'd bid at the table.
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#9 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 02:20

I think QJx is pretty offensive holding, so is Q, a perfect minimum such as KJxx xxx Kxxx Ax makes 4 a good contract but partner would guess to bid 4 himself with xxx I think.


IMO quick pass>4>slow pass>double
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#10 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 02:46

I'm bidding 4 with this hand.

IMPs is about total points won or lost.

Let's say partner is right and that this IS a LOTT hand. Then with 17 total trump between the two hands there should be 17 total tricks in the hand. If 4 is making, then that leaves your side with 7 tricks in a contract. That's down 3. If you are Dbld NV, that's still only -500 versus a -420 if they play in 4 -- a loss of 2 IMPs. But it may be unclear to the opponent's whether to Double or not -- in an auction like this, it often hard to tell who's bidding to make and who's sacrificing -- then you might be -150 versus -420 -- a gain of 7 IMPs. If 4 is down 1 or down 2, then 4 would be set 2 tricks or 1 trick respectively -- potentially a loss of -150 or -4 IMPs -- not exactly a disaster.

And, of course, the opponents might just hold 10 trumps, making it an 18 total trick hand -- so that bidding is even more attractive.

Now let's look at your hand. You can see that your side has a 2 suited fit, you have ruffing potential in , and you have a value in the 4th suit sitting behind what looks to be the stronger of the opponent's hands. So all the values in your hand are "working". If partner holds something as minimal as KJxx xx AKxxx xx, 19 total HCP, 4 still has a good chance to make. Any time you can catch one of these "thin" games, it's usually very good for your side.

The jackpot is, as gszes points out, when partners are in 4 making and 4 makes. These double game swings are usually match winners.

Also, some percentage of the time, your opponent's may take the push to 5 going down 1 more than your partners OR going down when partners are allowed to play and make 4.
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#11 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 04:36

Plus this hand might not provide a trick in defence.
A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem – Albert Einstein
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#12 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 13:44

Thanks for all the comments!

View PostFluffy, on 2012-June-07, 02:20, said:

I think QJx is pretty offensive holding, so is Q, a perfect minimum such as KJxx xxx Kxxx Ax makes 4 a good contract but partner would guess to bid 4 himself with xxx I think.


Really? I admit I have never done that before, nor would I ever consider doing it (raising to 2 and then bidding 4 over 4 as opener). Maybe that's a hole in my game.
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#13 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-June-07, 13:50

It's not a hole in your game.

I would pass without thinking too hard. If spades are 4-1 our hand goes to hell (having bad trumps in a 4-4 is a huge warning sign, especially with no values), and even if they aren't our hand is not very good. Trumps being 4-1 is not that unlikely given that there rates to be shape around the table on this auction. Bidding can be a winner but I think it's a losing gamble. There is not that much reason to suspect they are cold when we have half the deck and no huge fit and a good lead and trumps are breaking badly unless they have a ten card fit.
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