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fouled board club game

#1 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-June-04, 20:39

at the club game today
there was a fouled board where one hand had 12 cards and the other 14
by the time the players figured it out it was trick 10 or so.
the TD let the result the contract was headed for, how you determine that I dont know.

what should the ruling be according to the laws?

i would assign avg+/avg-
i assume it was the same pair direction
not both pairs.

thanks in advance
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#2 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-June-04, 21:16

I would not make that assumption.

Law 13 applies here. In general, this law requires or may require an adjusted score. Whether one is required here depends on which hand held 14 cards, and where that fourteenth card is at the time the problem is discovered and the director presumably called. It is (just barely, IMO) possible that the irregularity did not affect the bidding or previous play, in which case the card, if it has not been played, can be moved to the correct hand, play continues, and the score stands. If the fourteenth card is among the quitted tricks then I think you have to award an ArtAS. What that score should be depends on which hands were defective and how they came to be that way.
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#3 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-June-05, 09:36

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-June-04, 21:16, said:

I would not make that assumption.

Law 13 applies here. In general, this law requires or may require an adjusted score. Whether one is required here depends on which hand held 14 cards, and where that fourteenth card is at the time the problem is discovered and the director presumably called. It is (just barely, IMO) possible that the irregularity did not affect the bidding or previous play, in which case the card, if it has not been played, can be moved to the correct hand, play continues, and the score stands. If the fourteenth card is among the quitted tricks then I think you have to award an ArtAS. What that score should be depends on which hands were defective and how they came to be that way.

what I was told was that it was at trick 11
should there then be a procedural penalty against the pair that fouled the board?
or should it only be based on their level of expertise, i have no idea wether they were
a novice or advanced player.

thanks for your fast reply
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#4 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-June-05, 09:55

There should probably be a PP against the pair that fouled the board, although I realize that we tend to let things slide at clubs. You should also warn the players at this table that they MUST count their cards when they remove them from the board; if they're experienced players, you might consider a PP against them as well.

#5 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 04:12

View Postbarmar, on 2012-June-05, 09:55, said:

if they're experienced players, you might consider a PP against them as well.

if they are experienced players they will notice they have 12 or 14 before 11th trick. I though the av- was enough penalty BTW
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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 05:01

A score adjustment is not a penalty. Directors, in particular, need to get rid of that mindset.
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#7 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 06:06

That it is not a penalty does not mean that less experienced players will not understand it as a penalty.
Kind Regards

Roland


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More system is not the answer...
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 06:13

If I receive a lower score than I might have expected because of something I did wrong then in everyday parlance this is a penalty, regardless of what a TD wants to call it. This is different from a case of restoring equity.
(-: Zel :-)
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#9 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 08:25

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-June-06, 05:01, said:

A score adjustment is not a penalty. Directors, in particular, need to get rid of that mindset.

View PostCodo, on 2012-June-06, 06:06, said:

That it is not a penalty does not mean that less experienced players will not understand it as a penalty.
IMO this "Adjustment" is a "Penalty". A rare island of "Deterrence" in a sewage-pool of "Equity".
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-June-06, 15:57

View PostCodo, on 2012-June-06, 06:06, said:

That it is not a penalty does not mean that less experienced players will not misunderstand it as a penalty.

FYP. B-)
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#11 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-June-12, 08:46

What should the TD do? Read the Law out from the book and apply it. Did he?
David Stevenson

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Currently at home
Visiting IBLF from time to time
<webjak666@gmail.com>
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