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take out or penalty..the old story

#1 User is offline   acer55 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 03:41

1 - pass - 1- 1
pass -2 - double
what can be that dbl ?my opinion is that after opener described with pass his hand which is balanced 12-14 without 4 spades (he would bid 1sp after 1h with 4 spades )..dbl is penalty.take out to what ?not to spades becouse opener denied 4 spades .
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#2 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 00:04

Posted Yesterday, 17:41 1 - pass - 1- 1
pass -2 - double
what can be that dbl ?my opinion is that after opener described with pass his hand which is balanced 12-14 without 4 spades (he would bid 1sp after 1h with 4 spades )..dbl is penalty.take out to what ?not to spades becouse opener denied 4 spades .
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First of all, welcome to the Chinese Forum.

Now I wil have some comments on your topic.

I think maybe there are three kinds of metheds according to different bidding style rules.

1. "up the line" principle as bidding rule,

2. By-Pass Diamonds with a Weak Hand

3.walsh style principle as bidding rule

Discussion as below:

First: "Up the line" principle played as bidding rule

1♣ - pass - 1♦- 1♥
pass -2♥ - double
Supposing opener rebis 1,obviously it is a cheaper major,merely! And nothing with others.
now in this case,what you said is right with no doubt.
The up the line method has the shortcomings of getting to the major suit slowly,
and, in most cases, revealing more to the opponents.


Second:Walsh style

what is Walsh-style bidding? It occurs after partner has opened 1♣ and refers to the practice of responder by-passing the diamond suit in favor of showing a major suit,unless responder has a good hand.

Let's look at that auctions again:

1 - pass - 1♦- 1
pass -2 - double
now it is time that we think why opener can not rebid 1?

after opp bid 1H,what is the meanings of rebid 1 by opener? What is 1 rebidding's promise?

Now if opener rebid i,it promise 4+5 with unbelanced hand?

I think opener rebid 1 will deny minimum limted with balanced hand, and the worse pattern of his hand is 4243 without heart stopper.Usually it may be 5+4.

So I have some resons to guess that opener shape of hand may be 3235 ,12-14p without heart stopper.

My conclusion : This double by responder is penalty.

Here hand is a notable exception to the rule about opponents bidding and agreeing a suit.

The negative double is ONLY in the situation where opener's bid is overcalled directly; a double by responder is then the Negative Double.








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#3 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 02:51

When the opponents raise voluntarilly themselves no double is pure penalty on a partscore.

This one is take out with a hand such as 4153 10-11 range, a hand that can´t let them play that cheap and wants to compete further.
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#4 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 23:40

View PostFluffy, on 2012-May-27, 02:51, said:

When the opponents raise voluntarilly themselves no double is pure penalty on a partscore.

This one is take out with a hand such as 4153 10-11 range, a hand that can´t let them play that cheap and wants to compete further.





Sounds very much like an oracle !

When the opponents raise voluntarilly themselves no double is pure penalty on a partscore.
Thou shall not sin !
Anyway, when they raise, it is always voluntary, there are no guns at the table....

Do we rally have to take that as a Law, or a good Practice, or maybe just as a partnership agreement ?



Bob Herreman
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#5 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-May-28, 02:47

It is 'thou shalt not sin.'
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#6 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-May-28, 06:04

View PostLurpoa, on 2012-May-27, 23:40, said:

Anyway, when they raise, it is always voluntary, there are no guns at the table


"Voluntarily" was meant to convey thatthe raise was not in competition.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#7 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-28, 06:08

I actually mean that it was not a preference after they are forced to pick one of the suits or a bid that comes out from a take out double.
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