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raise to grand II

#1 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 18:44

9
KJxxxx
x
A8xxx

2-2NT
3-4
4NT-5
5-5
5NT-6
6-6

2 weak 2 suiter. at least 5-5
2NT strong
3 maximum with clubs
4 keycard asking in hearts
5 asks for K (must ask for K to ask for Q)
5 asks for Q
6 asks for K and no more room is there.


Just to clarify, partner could had asked about our short suit but didn't care to (or didn't wanna lose the space). He also wasted a lot of space to ask for Q wich is not there, yet he made a last grand try.

This post has been edited by Fluffy: 2012-May-22, 19:08

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#2 User is offline   twoshy 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 20:00

Partner should be better than Ax, AQx, AQJxx, Kxx, with which he would ask about our shortage since the Q would not be sufficient for grand if we were 1525. Could partner have AKQJ, AQx, Axx, Kxx or something similar, where he can count exactly 12 tricks and just needs something extra from us for 13, so we should bid grand? Or could partner have AK, AQx, AQJxx, Kxx? I don't see why not. I pass.

Edit: On second thought, hands of the same nature as that 4333 (no ruffs needed for 12) might bid 6NT since it could survive a bad trump break. I think that is even more reason to pass.

This is a tangent, but I think it's important to have a general try for grand available. General extras are very easy for opener to assess and express. If responder can just bid 5NT with my 4333 example hand, you can pass in relative comfort on the actual auction. As another aside, can you show both shortages (hence 6-5 either way) if partner asks over 3? I'm assuming that partner could have found that out, keycarded (using 4 instead of 4, say, though 4NT is also fine) and partner would no longer be asking about kings (we're 6-5!) - he could just ask about the club queen and we would respect his decision. His decision to not follow that route could be because 2-2NT-3-3-4(=one shortage)-4 is RKCB for and is too high to ask for both Q and K, so I'm not sure if any negative inferences exist.
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#3 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-May-23, 19:16

Partner asked for K which we don't have. However, we do have 2nd round control in and an extra trump, which I think is as good as having K, so I'll bid 7.
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#4 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-24, 04:26

I think partner might have 2 knd of hands, AQJ long with Kxx, or what he actually got: AJx A10xxx Axx Kx. Raising to 7 was right.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-May-24, 04:53

View PostFluffy, on 2012-May-24, 04:26, said:

I think partner might have 2 knd of hands, AQJ long with Kxx, or what he actually got: AJx A10xxx Axx Kx. Raising to 7 was right.

What would 2-2N-4 mean ? We use this to show the 5th club and a max which would help partner value his holdings (he can count 13 if he knows you are 6-5 with K/A).
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#6 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-May-24, 07:42

Quote

I think partner might have 2 knd of hands, ♦AQJ long with ♣Kxx, or what he actually got: ♠AJx ♥A10xxx ♦Axx ♣Kx. Raising to 7 was right.
Why did he ask for clubs K+Q with that ??? He just need to ask for the K of D and the K of S and make a try for 7.

You will know that hes lacking 1 trick but has all the keycards and enough trumps/club filler to get rid of all your clubs losers. So you will be able to bid 7 with any 65 since you dont have pointed losers. You will also be able to bid 7 holding AQxxx of clubs since partner is heavy favorite to have the K of clubs unless he has something like

Axx
AQxxx
AQJx
x

wich still make the GS a fair shot.
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#7 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-24, 08:20

partner has delberatelly wasted space to ask for Q, he therefore must have K.

He could had forgot about Q and go directly for K or K, but since KJxxx Kx x Axxxx is a 1 level opening, he went for the most likelly card to provide 13 tricks: Q
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#8 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-24, 08:23

View PostCyberyeti, on 2012-May-24, 04:53, said:

What would 2-2N-4 mean ? We use this to show the 5th club and a max which would help partner value his holdings (he can count 13 if he knows you are 6-5 with K/A).


Our response structure to 2NT was at fault on this board, it can be improved for sure. I think that if we include 6 answers instead of 4 then 3NT will be clubs and 4 will be diamonds. Anyway I was interesnted in this hand about deducting that partner has K and is trying for 7 even when he wanted Q in our hands but didn't find it.
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-May-24, 11:13

View PostFluffy, on 2012-May-24, 08:23, said:

Our response structure to 2NT was at fault on this board, it can be improved for sure. I think that if we include 6 answers instead of 4 then 3NT will be clubs and 4 will be diamonds. Anyway I was interesnted in this hand about deducting that partner has K and is trying for 7 even when he wanted Q in our hands but didn't find it.

Yeah, he almost certainly has the K, but the danger is that he has Kxx and 7's just not there. My previous response prob makes no sense as I'd misread the OP and thought this was a weak 2, but a structure that has a bid for 6th would help you. I think with a 6th heart, I'd look at showing the Q to keycard, on a good day, partner has it and knows we have a 6th (or has a 4th heart), on a bad day we try to play for no loser opposite Axx.

Also, what's a weak 2 suiter, what's your limit ? Where do you start opening 1 ? If KQxxx/AQxxx or KJxxxx/AQxxx is too much, showing Q will deny Q so partner is pretty well placed.
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#10 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-24, 16:25

That's a good question, on a strong club context I am thinking about droping the level opening 1M with 10+ or even good 9, and then make the opening totally destructive with 5-4s all the time. As we play it right now it doesn't come up often enough.
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