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Schedule for Philly NABC+ Events?

#1 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 09:04

Anyone have any color on why the NABC+ events are all 10 & 3 or 10 & 4 instead of the usual 1 & 7:30?

Basically, they are playing a 10/(3 or 4)/7:30 schedule, instead of the usual 9/1/7:30 except that:
* Instead of important events being 1 & 730, they are now 10 & afternoon,
* They still have some 2-session regional pairs or whatnot at 1 & 730, and
* Zip KO's are off the schedule, seemingly.

Some reasons I find this exceptionally annoying are:
* I like time to review hands, eat leisurely, and rest between sets of a good event. 10am pairs events won't post results til 1:30 or so, and then we have to scramble and be back to play at 3?
* (some of) Those of us who are neither pros nor retirees can actually work from 7:30-11:30 and still play "the majors" while only taking a half-day off work. Playing at 10 & 3 destroys the whole work day (since you know none of us will be able to work after the 3:00 session, especially if we're playing yet again at 7:30!). There was an outside chance I could take a week of half-days to play one of the Spingolds, but there's no chance if they are at 10 & 4 through the whole work week.
* I like to go to the bar and post-mortem after the late set, but now rather than do that, we might all run immediately to grab a crappy quick dinner and play the unimportant 7:30 set.
* Seriously? No ******* Zip KO's?

Thoughts?

edit: http://www.acbl.org/...ABCschedule.pdf
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

"...we live off being battle-scarred veterans who manage to hate our opponents slightly more than we hate each other. -- Hamman, re: Wolff
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#2 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 10:05

I'm in favor of this change. WBF events use similar times.

I'm looking forward to playing at these times.

1. My sleep schedule gets totally off when the session ends at 11 (usually a lot later for the big team events). As a result I get on adrenaline overload, which takes a few days after a tournament to recover.

2. The three hours between the 1 and the 7:30 session is a complete waste. I'm not in the mood for a long dinner, and if I sleep I'm a zombie for the night set. I usually find myself twiddling my thumbs for at least an hour.

3. After the second session, I do want to talk about the hands, but I can't count the number of times I've closed the bar and finally turned in at 2 AM.

4. With this schedule, I can actually enjoy a decent dinner for a change.

I sympathize with you about squeezing in a 1/2 day of work. I was very productive in the mornings before Seattle. In the end, if I have too much to do, I shouldn't be shipping off for a tournament anyway.
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#3 User is offline   jeffford76 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 10:28

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-22, 09:04, said:

Anyone have any color on why the NABC+ events are all 10 & 3 or 10 & 4 instead of the usual 1 & 7:30?


I think these times are fine for a west coast event, but they're terrible for an east coast event. Those of us traveling from the west have to be ready to play at the body clock equivalent of 7am. I'm an early riser, and this is still too early. My partner is not, and it is even worse for her. So I am faced with the choice of coming in early, which requires taking extra vacation, or playing badly the first day because of particularly bad jet lag issues.
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#4 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 11:12

I was sort of on the fence about going to Philly, but yeah, if I can't do some work during normal business hours I can't really justify going. Sorry ACBL!

I, personally, also disagree with every one of Phil's points. It's weird how the 10 and 3 vs 1 and 7:30 debate is so polarizing.
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#5 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 11:12

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-22, 09:04, said:

Anyone have any color on why the NABC+ events are all 10 & 3 or 10 & 4 instead of the usual 1 & 7:30?


To please a vocal minority
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#6 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 11:21

The standard arguments for "senior times" (10&3) are:
- people feel unsafe leaving downtown wherever after dark;
- many older people (and we have a lot of them) don't like/have trouble driving at night;
- people aren't night owls and think 9-5 (so 10-7 is okay), and are asleep at 2300;
- 1630-1930 is "way too long for the dinner break" (never mind that the directors lose at least 90 minutes of that).
- also, "we can have a leisurely dinner, or go sightseeing, or go to a show"

Given that I *am* a night owl, and have said more than once "if I have to show up at 0900 to work, I might as well stay at my real job; I do this one because it's my schedule", you can see where I am on this debate. I'm also young(ish) and male, and live in Canada, so I tend to feel less uncomfortable downtown at night than other bridge players.

And yeah, playing at 0800 "body time" is going to be a lot of no fun.
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#7 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 12:08

View Postjjbrr, on 2012-May-22, 11:12, said:

To please a vocal minority


Then why are the WBF events during the day?
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#8 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 12:46

View PostPhil, on 2012-May-22, 10:05, said:

I'm in favor of this change. WBF events use similar times.

I'm looking forward to playing at these times.

1. My sleep schedule gets totally off when the session ends at 11 (usually a lot later for the big team events). As a result I get on adrenaline overload, which takes a few days after a tournament to recover.

Understandable, but honestly, someone can make this argument about any schedule. Plenty of people are up at 5am -- perhaps we should be playing at 6:30!

Quote

2. The three hours between the 1 and the 7:30 session is a complete waste. I'm not in the mood for a long dinner, and if I sleep I'm a zombie for the night set. I usually find myself twiddling my thumbs for at least an hour.


They are killing 90 minutes between sessions for the LM pairs (1/7:30 vs 10/3). Shortening the break by a half hour (e.g., Spingold 10/4), ok that's fine. But by an hour and a half? Come on now, guys. This basically forces us to eat within a block or so of the hotel, which is always crap food at jacked up prices. And since _everyone_ is forced to do this, now those places are gonna fill up and have waits.

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3. After the second session, I do want to talk about the hands, but I can't count the number of times I've closed the bar and finally turned in at 2 AM.

Yeah, this is awesome, and then we don't start til 1:00 the next day. Some of the best times I've had at NABCs are in the bar.

And Phil, don't kid yourself. We're still gonna close the bar. It's just that now the 10am start is going to be brutal.

Quote

4. With this schedule, I can actually enjoy a decent dinner for a change.


I'm not sure I understand why you couldn't before with such a long break. The only difference is that you can order wine/drinks with dinner and/or order a heavier dinner. Ok, this is a fine comment for folks _only_ playing the majors. But plenty of people will want to play 3 sessions and will have nearly NO dinner break (far worse than a tiny lunch break imo). So that pretty much sucks.

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I sympathize with you about squeezing in a 1/2 day of work. I was very productive in the mornings before Seattle. In the end, if I have too much to do, I shouldn't be shipping off for a tournament anyway.


For me, it's less about how much work I have to do and more about how much vacation I have. I can reasonably show up for Wed-Sun and take only 1 vacation day (if that), by being skype-able in the morning and getting done just a regular amount of work in the mornings. If I'm playing at 10am every day, I'll get no work done.


View Postmycroft, on 2012-May-22, 11:21, said:

The standard arguments for "senior times" (10&3) are:
- people feel unsafe leaving downtown wherever after dark;

I'm pretty sure most people can get from the hotel valet to the highway without getting carjacked. I understand what you're saying, but the site is hardly in the ghetto.

Quote

- many older people (and we have a lot of them) don't like/have trouble driving at night;

So is this change only for the summer NABC? Because for fall and winter it's dark after the 4pm session anyway, and in summer they'll probably be driving after dark if they live more than 30 minutes from the site or if they get dinner afterwards.

Quote

- people aren't night owls and think 9-5 (so 10-7 is okay), and are asleep at 2300;

Again, I think there are as many night owls as morning folk. Remember that NABCs used to be social events, and afaik, that's why historically things didn't start until later. But now that the old fuddy duddies are old and fuddy duddies, the youth don't get to have fun like they did in their day?

Quote

- 1630-1930 is "way too long for the dinner break" (never mind that the directors lose at least 90 minutes of that).

See above.

Quote

- also, "we can have a leisurely dinner, or go sightseeing, or go to a show"

Isn't the morning far better for sightseeing? And yeah, you can go to a show -- as soon as they hold the NABC in NYC or Vegas. I don't know about you, but I didn't go to Louisville to see their local production of Les Mis.

(I know these aren't your points, so when I rebut them, it's not directed at you. I'm just frustrated as hell by this, because I was planning on spending quite a bit of time in Philly but now I can only go basically for the weekends, and I live an hour away.)

And seriously wtf with the midnight KOs??
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

"...we live off being battle-scarred veterans who manage to hate our opponents slightly more than we hate each other. -- Hamman, re: Wolff
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#9 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 13:13

Heh, wyman, realize I'm *not* in favour of 10&3. I'm just relaying what I hear.

Edit: notice on second reading you do realize it.
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#10 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 13:40

A typical pair game is 3 1/2 hours. If the game starts on time (negligible) that gives us 90 minutes. For lunch. I don't know of any companies that do this.

Honestly, if the schedule was 7AM and 12PM it wouldn't have any impact on whether or not I go. I just prefer the earlier starts.
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#11 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 13:46

View PostPhil, on 2012-May-22, 12:08, said:

Then why are the WBF events during the day?


Because WBF events are different? Are you just trolling?
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#12 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 13:59

View PostPhil, on 2012-May-22, 13:40, said:

A typical pair game is 3 1/2 hours. If the game starts on time (negligible) that gives us 90 minutes. For lunch.


In an unfamiliar city, without the option of packing our own (if we are traveling and staying at the host hotel, which won't have a fridge unless we lie and say we're diabetic and need a fridge for insulin, which would be cruel since probably a large fraction of the people there will legitimately need a fridge for insulin).

And let's just take the pairs game: I want to check all my scores to make sure they are right (it's a huge event) and get my scores so I can review the right boards at lunch (since I won't have time to review them all). Plus the entire NABC will be getting lunch at the same places at the same time, not to mention the usual lunch crowd for the area.

Maybe this will be fine; we'll have to see. I'm not opposed to change in general, but I really think this is going to change the dynamic of NABCs for me.
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

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#13 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 16:37

View Postjjbrr, on 2012-May-22, 13:46, said:

Because WBF events are different? Are you just trolling?


Not really an answer to my question, but since you are concerned I am trolling the answer is not that important to me.
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#14 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 17:21

WOW you guys sure work alot.

work half a day play bridge to midnight then go to the bar and work half a day the next day etc....


I agree that bridge events are not really set up to accomadate such a schedule.

It reminds in the days before cell phones when everyone would go to an outside meeting and rush to the phones at the break. I could never figure out why they could not delagate a few days out of the office to others and enjoy themselves. It must be tough not being able to teach someone to do your job for a few days and leave you alone.
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#15 User is offline   JanM 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 18:51

I hate the 10 & 3/4 schedule. I don't plan to play at all in Phila, and I won't be helping with Vugraph during the first quarter of the Spingold matches. The last time that this schedule was tried at an NABC (also on the East Coast - whoever mentioned that I completely agree - if they want to do it, why not on the West Coast?) it actually reduced attendance so they didn't do it again until now. But both Phila and Atlanta are scheduled for 10 & 3/4. I don't know of any way to protest other than by not playing :).

As for WBF events, the main difference is that the WBF team events play 48 boards a day, whereas the ACBL team events play 64 boards a day. If you play 48 boards a day and start play at 10:00 in the morning, you can actually finish at a reasonable time for a nice dinner. But with 64 boards, the Spingold will likely end at 9:00, which is (for me anyway) too late to start getting organized and go out for dinner. But some disagree.

The only positive to this schedule (IMHO) is that the Hall of Fame banquet can be after play is over for the day. (First Sunday, I think)
Jan Martel, who should probably state that she is not speaking on behalf of the USBF, the ACBL, the WBF Systems Committee, or any member of any Systems Committee or Laws Commission.
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#16 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 20:46

View Postjeffford76, on 2012-May-22, 10:28, said:

I think these times are fine for a west coast event, but they're terrible for an east coast event. Those of us traveling from the west have to be ready to play at the body clock equivalent of 7am. I'm an early riser, and this is still too early. My partner is not, and it is even worse for her. So I am faced with the choice of coming in early, which requires taking extra vacation, or playing badly the first day because of particularly bad jet lag issues.


Totally agree with this. I'm even on an early schedule; I wake up most days before 7AM and am at work and ready to be productive by 8AM.

Oops, that's an hour too late for competitive bridge, since I will be coming from the west coast! Despite my generally early schedule I expect to be groggy for the first session in Philly. When I brought this up years ago the generous response from ACBL regulars was "why don't you arrive a few days early to get used to the time change"? Sorry, some of us have (non-bridge) jobs. But I guess ACBL doesn't care about that small minority of the membership... certainly not a very forward-looking policy in my opinion.
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#17 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-May-22, 23:41

so let me get this you young healthy guys are too groggy to play at ten am due to jet lag?


that is the main argument or is the argument you cant teach someone to replace you at work for a few days?

If Jan's point is NABC's have to many hands per day to enjoy the tourney, fair enough.
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#18 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2012-May-23, 01:43

View Postmike777, on 2012-May-22, 23:41, said:

so let me get this you young healthy guys are too groggy to play at ten am due to jet lag?


that is the main argument or is the argument you cant teach someone to replace you at work for a few days?

If Jan's point is NABC's have to many hands per day to enjoy the tourney, fair enough.


A number of folks who are young and play bridge on the west coast typically have a later schedule (like up at 9am or 10am). Even if you have a normal or slightly early schedule (like awm), you still are not up early enough to play on the east coast. 10am east coast is 7am pacific (and even worse for Hawaii). And presumably you wake up even earlier for shower/breakfast/whatever before the event starts. It is definitely a lot more difficult than the traditional 1 and 7:30 start times. And given the way geography works is made much worse when it is done on the East coast than when it is done on the West coast.
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#19 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-May-23, 05:04

View Postmike777, on 2012-May-22, 23:41, said:

you cant teach someone to replace you at work for a few days?


Are you serious? Because this sounds like trolling unless you have it in your head that we all work at McDonalds or something.
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#20 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-May-23, 06:21

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-23, 05:04, said:

Are you serious? Because this sounds like trolling unless you have it in your head that we all work at McDonalds or something.

Are you serious? (About not having mike777 on ignore, that is.)
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