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Did the wrong team win trials (Appeal Board 69)

#21 User is offline   paua 

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Posted 2012-May-07, 15:53

View Postchudecek, on 2012-May-07, 10:00, said:

I know from nothing about BBF hand diagrams, but I will look. Point well made.

Everyone in the world SHOULD be talking about this hand because it
was significant in International team selection.


Most of the world doesn't care about selection of another country's bridge team. Believe me.
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#22 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2012-May-08, 09:15

lol
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#23 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2012-May-08, 15:25

View PostPhil, on 2012-May-07, 08:45, said:

I didn't watch this board.

Can someone provide some more detail instead of "what could have been"?

Same here.
I see the diagram above, but how did the play go?
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#24 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2012-May-08, 15:30

View Postmfa1010, on 2012-May-08, 15:25, said:

Same here.
I see the diagram above, but how did the play go?

Ok I see it was in the OP.
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#25 User is offline   SimonFa 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 00:41

View Postpaua, on 2012-May-07, 15:53, said:

Most of the world doesn't care about selection of another country's bridge team. Believe me.

In my experience most of the world doesn't care about the selection of their own country's team, and that includes most club players.
Still looking for a regular real world partner to play 2/1 or SAYC in Dorset area, willing to travel.
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#26 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 00:53

View PostSimonFa, on 2012-May-09, 00:41, said:

In my experience most of the world doesn't care about the selection of their own country's team, and that includes most club players.



I could not disagree more strongly.......

I would hate it ...just hate it if we did not have an open competition, open to all members.....

Fair enough you can debate/argue what open version is best but......

In fact I think that other countries that are not open, I dont respect!

They may win but I dont respect them. ?they come across as cowards, afraid to compete in their own country.

I would hate it if some wise man or woman selected the open team because they are wise or rich.
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#27 User is offline   SimonFa 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 01:26

View Postmike777, on 2012-May-09, 00:53, said:

I could not disagree more strongly.......

I would hate it ...just hate it if we did not have an open competition, open to all members.....

Fair enough you can debate/argue what open version is best but......

In fact I think that other countries that are not open, I dont respect!

They may win but I dont respect them. ?they come across as cowards, afraid to compete in their own country.

I would hate it if some wise man or woman selected the open team because they are wise or rich.


Wow, where did that come from? I only commented that in my experience most people don't care how their team is selected, or for that matter know they are even competing.

As it happens I do care and take an interest and agree with you that it should be open.
Still looking for a regular real world partner to play 2/1 or SAYC in Dorset area, willing to travel.
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#28 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 02:03

Yeah very nice. My team composed of 5 pros who will have to pay all expenses to play in Lille, including tickets, hotel and entry fee to the tournament (our NBO provides zero money). Now because some team of 6 amateurs (2 of them just play to fill up because someone cannot play one of the days) wants to play against us for fun we will have to travel to another city to play trials for a whole weekend and spend another extra 2000€ between all of us (half of them because of lessons we won't be able to make). I am very happy that it is open O_o
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#29 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 02:20

View PostFluffy, on 2012-May-09, 02:03, said:

Yeah very nice. My team composed of 5 pros who will have to pay all expenses to play in Lille, including tickets, hotel and entry fee to the tournament (our NBO provides zero money). Now because some team of 6 amateurs (2 of them just play to fill up because someone cannot play one of the days) wants to play against us for fun we will have to travel to another city to play trials for a whole weekend and spend another extra 2000€ between all of us (half of them because of lessons we won't be able to make). I am very happy that it is open O_o



by definition if they are pros they dont pay...they get paid.......

If they aint getting paid they aint pros.

not sure why spanish pro players need to fly to france to play for spain. Learn to say Just NO! Show me the money!

In any event assume spanish opp. must do same.....
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#30 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 03:07

View Postmike777, on 2012-May-09, 00:53, said:

I could not disagree more strongly.......

I would hate it ...just hate it if we did not have an open competition, open to all members.....

Fair enough you can debate/argue what open version is best but......

In fact I think that other countries that are not open, I dont respect!

They may win but I dont respect them. ?they come across as cowards, afraid to compete in their own country.

I would hate it if some wise man or woman selected the open team because they are wise or rich.

Different circumstances ask for different ways to chose a national team.

If you would want to send one best baseball team to represent North America, would you organize an open one week tournament and see who comes floating on top? Or would you pick the team that won the World Series? Or would you select the best players for each position (the All Star team)? I am pretty sure that of these three methods, the first one is the worst to pick the best team.

However, circumstances in North American bridge are such that it is pretty much the only way. There is no National Bridge League where teams are competing against each other throughout the season. The distances are too long to make this feasible. Nevertheless, the teams in the USA are tied strongly around a team "owner" (a rich, wise man or woman). Given the conditions that the players are pretty much committed to teams, the only way to select a team is to have a selection tournament.

In Europe, the circumstances are very different. Take, for example, The Netherlands:

- The top players meet each other hundred times per year in:
  o the national bridge league for teams, MP pairs, as well as the IMP pair circuit. (These are "open" to about the best 60 players of the country.)
  o weekly training/practice sessions for the national team. (These are -in principle- open for anyone who thinks he can be good enough to represent the country and has the time to show up every week.)
  o training matches vs teams from other countries (Europe is small)
  o a range of national tournaments in The Netherlands
  o finally (for the top players only) the tournaments where the American top players meet each other (NABC's and big international invitational tournaments)

This means that it is much easier to put an "All Star team" together, consisting of the best three pairs (with some boundary conditions, such as: can these guys be on the same team?).

Yes, these players are selected by "wise men" (The Nickel and Diamond teams aren't?). But you cannot say that they are afraid to compete in their own country. After all, they compete way much more in their own country than the North American players do.

This is the case for most players in European teams. Each country has a national team league where teams are competing against each other in a way similar to MLB, NBA, NFL or NHL in North America. With very few exceptions, the players of the national teams compete in their national leagues.

Rik
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#31 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 03:09

Again you miss the main point

The number one goal is not to send the best team. We dont even agree what that means!

I have said this over and over again over many years here in the forums.

If a team of second best win...that is great! In fact that is better if they beat the number one team picked by a wise man.

If the Dutch want to put together an all star team..great..just make them play open teams!

If they lose they lose!

I would think an open team beating an all star team would be great news...you seem to think it is bad news

Let me put it this way in American Football, basketball, baseball...the second or third rated team may win!

But we call them the best team, We call them winners
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#32 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 03:48

View Postmike777, on 2012-May-09, 03:09, said:

But we call them the best team, We call them winners

When the Russians won the Olympic gold medal in basketball with the (third time lucky) last second Hail Mary pass play, did you, or for that matter anyone else in the USA, consider them the best basketball team in the world at that time? Do you think it would be a good idea for the USA to send the winners of the NBA play-offs (perhaps minus a few foreign players) to the Olympics to represent them rather than have a coach select what they consider to be the best squad?

What is best for one country or sport may not be best for another. For all your disparaging words it is hard to argue with the success that Italy has enjoyed over the years. Perhaps you do not respect them because you think they are scared of competition. Personally I call them winners. Why do you think winning the Bermuda Bowl repeatedly does not count as competition?
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#33 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 07:03

View PostTrinidad, on 2012-May-09, 03:07, said:

Different circumstances ask for different ways to chose a national team.

If you would want to send one best baseball team to represent North America, would you organize an open one week tournament and see who comes floating on top? Or would you pick the team that won the World Series? Or would you select the best players for each position (the All Star team)? I am pretty sure that of these three methods, the first one is the worst to pick the best team.

However, circumstances in North American bridge are such that it is pretty much the only way. There is no National Bridge League where teams are competing against each other throughout the season. The distances are too long to make this feasible. Nevertheless, the teams in the USA are tied strongly around a team "owner" (a rich, wise man or woman). Given the conditions that the players are pretty much committed to teams, the only way to select a team is to have a selection tournament.

In Europe, the circumstances are very different. Take, for example, The Netherlands:

- The top players meet each other hundred times per year in:
  o the national bridge league for teams, MP pairs, as well as the IMP pair circuit. (These are "open" to about the best 60 players of the country.)
  o weekly training/practice sessions for the national team. (These are -in principle- open for anyone who thinks he can be good enough to represent the country and has the time to show up every week.)
  o training matches vs teams from other countries (Europe is small)
  o a range of national tournaments in The Netherlands
  o finally (for the top players only) the tournaments where the American top players meet each other (NABC's and big international invitational tournaments)

This means that it is much easier to put an "All Star team" together, consisting of the best three pairs (with some boundary conditions, such as: can these guys be on the same team?).

Yes, these players are selected by "wise men" (The Nickel and Diamond teams aren't?). But you cannot say that they are afraid to compete in their own country. After all, they compete way much more in their own country than the North American players do.

This is the case for most players in European teams. Each country has a national team league where teams are competing against each other in a way similar to MLB, NBA, NFL or NHL in North America. With very few exceptions, the players of the national teams compete in their national leagues.

Rik


Louk and Rico have also started playing USA regionals where they are no doubt paid very well to show up. And I have no doubt this will make them much stronger as a pair, even though their team will always have a sponsor. Bas and Sjoert at one point were one of the highest paid pairs at the US nationals (which means they make enough in 3 tournaments a year to live reasonably well for the entire year, even if they made no more money). Simon and Bauke have played the nationals here for as long as I remember, I think they have also played regionals.

To be superstar bridge players at all, you need to be able to play bridge all the time. This means you need to be independently wealthy, or you need to make enough money playing bridge to support yourself. These guys are 100 % cashing in on their success in USA whenever they get the chance. From what I understand Team Orange is given some money, but not really a livable wage by their federation.

Here is the problem with selection in a country where there are more than three great pairs. Look what happened in Italy, the selection was controlled by one of the 2 major sponsors, and the 2 pairs on her team were selected, leaving out Fantoni/Nunes. We can call this political or we can say it was justified, who knows, but I'm sure it was unfair to Fantoni/Nunes...so what did they do? They left Italy. It's hard to blame them, in their mind they had almost no chance to play the world championships, and I think Fantoni was #1 in the world! No doubt he would like to compete to keep that ranking.

I heard that Huub Bertens was going to play in the US trials recently. I have no idea if he chose to leave the netherlands because he was not on the top 3 pairs in the netherlands despite being a great player, and it would no doubt not change very soon given that they won the bermuda bowl at home recently. But it must be a sucky feeling to be a great player with no chance at all to be on your team because its a selection process.

At least in USA, a country with a lot of great players, everyone gets a chance to compete and earn their way into the world championships. Sure, it's damn hard, but if it was a selection would someone like me really have a realistic shot of playing in a world championship in even the next 20 years? It's very unlikely. Having a chance to earn it makes you want to play better, play harder, etc. Say what you want about sponsors, but making more money, getting on better/higher paying teams, having better incentive laden contracts, is a huge motivator.

The ability to play in USA for a lot of money has made a lot of the foreign players much better. They can make enough money to play all the time, and they can play with each other in fields that are very tough. This situation simply doesnt exist in most other countries, so as a result you have regionals filled with bulgarians, turks, swedes, dutch, chinese (zhao), poles (balicki zmud are top 10 in masterpoints this year I think), etc etc. It is funny that people from those countries then look down upon us for being too mercenary...ok! If there were enough clients willing to pay enough money in those countries, the situation would be exactly the same.
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#34 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 09:09

Justin: curious as to why anyone would want to sponsor someone to play bridge?
bridge really isnt marketable so far after 80 years.....at least poker has found a way.
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#35 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 09:23

View Postpigpenz, on 2012-May-09, 09:09, said:

Justin: curious as to why anyone would want to sponsor someone to play bridge?
bridge really isnt marketable so far after 80 years.....at least poker has found a way.

Obviously people have their reasons, since they are out there doing it. I could only guess what these reasons are, but I doubt marketability is one of them.
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#36 User is offline   chudecek 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 09:46

In response to mfa1010:



Meckstroth led DJ, K, 3, 4
Moss led S5, 7, Q, 4
Moss led C4, 2, Q, 5 (Count by Eric?)
Moss led S6, T, J, A
Meckstroth led HQ, 2, 3, 5

For whatever reason – skill, experience, whatever - Jeff led HQ.
It HELD as Eric played H3 which HAD to be attitude. Now Jeff
can count declarer’s tricks: 2S 1H 2D 3C, and he should reason
unless Eric held H JTxx (which would be confirmed by H3)
there was no beat.

Jeff knows that on a D play after HQ holds, the D8 is either
In declarer’s hand or in Eric’s – therefore declarer can get a
9th trick by leading D9. So Jeff has to credit Eric for H JTxx
and continue with HK after his HQ holds.

This is consistent with playing for a beat and consistent
with Eric’s attitude signal of H3. The problem is that Eric’s
H3 came after a long tank, and this made Jeff suspect that
Eric did not have H JTxx.

The committee should have asked Jeff “How did you expect
to beat the hand unless your partner had H JTxx, which his H3
implied?” And the ruling should have been that continuing
with HK after HQ holds is the NORMAL defense. Push board.
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#37 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 10:03

Carl I agree on your analysis on the way you are showing it, however your attitude leads me to believe that you are not really objective, and there is perhaps mre to this story than really is.

From what others said Moss made a small error in the end by failing to make a safety play. Nobody has detailed the position I think so can't judge it fully.

I hate it when opponents cheat (often unintentionally) , then I make a careless play or a suboptimum bidding decision and the opponents get away with it. I think that on MP play when both sides at fault both get worst result on America (ok, I realice this is not ACBL, so I know the rules even less). Well that can be applied here and assing average of push and swing for half the score for example.
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#38 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 12:55

View PostFluffy, on 2012-May-09, 10:03, said:

Carl I agree on your analysis on the way you are showing it, however your attitude leads me to believe that you are not really objective, and there is perhaps mre to this story than really is.

From what others said Moss made a small error in the end by failing to make a safety play. Nobody has detailed the position I think so can't judge it fully.

I hate it when opponents cheat (often unintentionally) , then I make a careless play or a suboptimum bidding decision and the opponents get away with it. I think that on MP play when both sides at fault both get worst result on America (ok, I realice this is not ACBL, so I know the rules even less). Well that can be applied here and assing average of push and swing for half the score for example.

I hope you are not suggesting that Meckwell cheated here.

As for Carl's argument: I said before and I say again that it is extremely unfair....it is flat out wrong, imo, to criticize a committee decision without knowing what was said at the hearing.

I looked for the appeal decision: I thought it would be online, maybe in the bulletin. Has anyone seen it?

I was once involved in a contentious committee hearing, and the losers spread all kinds of false and malicious rumours afterwards, including allegations that the committee were friends of ours and biased. They also stated that certain things were said in committee that were not said. So I know from personal experience how important it is to get the facts right, and so far we have zero facts as to what was said.

For example, it strikes me as absurd to think that none of the Director(s), Moss, Gitelman, their team representative (I assume the captain was at the hearing) or any of the committee members did not ask Meckstroth why he switched.

The Diamond team seems to be made up of very strong adults, with a sound grasp of bridge law, and why are we assuming that they got jobbed, when we neither know nor can ask about the details?

I can tell you that as a trial lawyer, when you hear one side of the story and the outcome seems wrong, the chances are pretty good that you haven't heard the whole story.
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#39 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 13:31

I surely hope to hear more about how appeal went.
The law is clear. There was unauthorized information and if playing Kh was logical alternative then the result shouldn't stand.
The only way for Kh not being logical alternative is that they have some very detailed carding agreement here which I seriously doubt (if they had, Rodwell wouldn't think).
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#40 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-May-09, 14:13

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-May-09, 13:31, said:

The only way for Kh not being logical alternative is that they have some very detailed carding agreement here which I seriously doubt (if they had, Rodwell wouldn't think).

Wow....the more detailed my agreements, the more I have to think about them. True, Rodwell has a tad more experience than I do, but otoh he has a tad more agreements than I do. In fact, one of the commentators spoke about how she was inthe seat ahead of them on a cross-country flight and Meckwell spent the entire flight discussing finely detailed agreements. I don't care how smart they are....with the details they have, and the changes they make, I would expect thought more often than not.
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