# BBO Discussion Forums: 1c-1d=8+ any - BBO Discussion Forums

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## 1c-1d=8+ any

### #1borag

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Posted 2012-May-06, 04:37

Hi as I posted to this forum before, we are planning to play precision.
And for a smooth pass for my partner we will try a simple approach for 1

Openings
--------
1 = 16+ hp any
1 = 10-15 hp 5m-4x, 4441 or 11-13 bal 2+
1M = 10-15 hp 5+M
1n = 14-16 hp bal 5M ok
2m = 10-15 hp 6+m
2M = weak
2n = 10-13 hp 5m-5m

Here is what I think for 1 (and need opinions)

1 = 8+ hp any but not 5-5
1 = 5-7 hp bal or 5m-4+m(M<4) or 6+m(M<4)
1 = 0-4 hp any
1n = 5-7 hp unb majors 43xx, 44xx, 5(3+)xx, 64xx
2 = 5-7 hp unb 5+ , <3 (6-3 ok)
2 = 5-7 hp unb 5+, <3 (6-3 ok)
2 = 5-7 hp unb 1444 or 4-5+m, <3
2 = 5-7 hp unb 4144 or 4-5+m, <3
2n+ = 8+ hp 55 ( not decided how to yet)

Now 1-1 responses will be

1M = like opening, 16+ hp 5+M
1N = like opening, 17-19 hp / 22+ hp
2m = like opening, 16+ hp 6+m
2 = transfer a) 20-21 hp bal b)4M-5m(31/40)
2 = three colored, 16+ hp 4441
2n = like opening, 16+ hp 5m-5m
3 = game-forsing, 5c-3d-(41)M
3 = game-forsing, 5d-3c-(41)M
3 = game-forsing, 5m-4m-(31)M
3 = game-forsing, 5m-4m-(31)M

What we are planning to do is 1M/1n/2m/2N subsequent bidding
will be quite similar to 1c-1d => (1M/1n/2m/2N) re-openings

Any opinions ?
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### #2borag

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Posted 2012-May-06, 04:40

For eagle eyes
1c-1h = can include 5M balanced

1c-1d
2h = 20-21 bal or 4M-3M(51) or 44M(50)m
because
3m = 5m-3om(41)M
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### #3wclass___

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Posted 2012-May-06, 06:30

good luck.
Seeking input from anyone who doesn't frequently "wtp", "Lol" or post to merely "Agree with ..." --sathyab
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### #4akhare

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Posted 2012-May-06, 11:10

Borag,

You certainly seem to be on the right track.

I haven't given thought much to your continuations (without relays), but your proposed structure is very similar to the Moscito 1 GF, 1 DN and others SP (semi-positive).

Given 16+ 1, I would encourage you to think in terms of QPs (A=3, K=2, Q=1) and change your response definitions to:

1: GF with 5+ QPs (basically an A and a K)
1: DN with 0-2 QPs
Others: SP with 2-4 QPs

You may also want to think about whether you want to optimize your responses for part scores or slams. Basically, it comes down to how many responses you want to allocate for the SP responses; in our case we have a single SP response and multiple positive responses to conserve space for slam exploration.
foobar on BBO
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### #5borag

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Posted 2012-May-06, 14:52

Quenn points are a lot better, that makes sense
Thanks a lot Akhare
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### #6rbforster

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Posted 2012-May-07, 05:47

borag, on 2012-May-06, 04:37, said:

Openings
--------
1 = 16+ hp any
1 = 10-15 hp 5m-4x, 4441 or 11-13 bal 2+
2m = 10-15 hp 6+m
2n = 10-13 hp 5m-5m

it seems you are close but not quite able to promise a 4M if unbalanced with your 1 opening. However, you still have 5m/4om hands there. This seems problematic when the action goes 1d-1s-2c for example, which is often 5C/4H but could be 4C/5D too. No safety for partner to correct to hearts with 54xx, no good way to find diamonds without getting too high, etc. I would consider putting the 5-4 minors hands into 2m. At least that way you're more preemptive and responder knows that looking for a 4-4 major fit is unlikely (or impossible depending on if you open 6m/4M 1 vs 2m).
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### #7straube

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Posted 2012-May-07, 08:36

rbforster, on 2012-May-07, 05:47, said:

it seems you are close but not quite able to promise a 4M if unbalanced with your 1 opening. However, you still have 5m/4om hands there. This seems problematic when the action goes 1d-1s-2c for example, which is often 5C/4H but could be 4C/5D too. No safety for partner to correct to hearts with 54xx, no good way to find diamonds without getting too high, etc. I would consider putting the 5-4 minors hands into 2m. At least that way you're more preemptive and responder knows that looking for a 4-4 major fit is unlikely (or impossible depending on if you open 6m/4M 1 vs 2m).

I wouldn't do that. Our 1D-1H, 2C promises 5+D/4+C and our 1D-1S, 2C promises 3+D/4+C and our 1D-1S, 2D promises 4H/5+D. We use 1D-2H as Reverse Flannery (5S/4+H) which finds a lot of the heart fits. Ideally, you want 1D-1S, 2C-2H to be artificial GF and not a correction to hearts.
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### #8rbforster

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Posted 2012-May-07, 13:19

straube, on 2012-May-07, 08:36, said:

I wouldn't do that. Our 1D-1H, 2C promises 5+D/4+C and our 1D-1S, 2C promises 3+D/4+C and our 1D-1S, 2D promises 4H/5+D. We use 1D-2H as Reverse Flannery (5S/4+H) which finds a lot of the heart fits. Ideally, you want 1D-1S, 2C-2H to be artificial GF and not a correction to hearts.

What do you do with xx45 after 1d-1h? Bid 2c, or fudge with off shape NTs/1S rebids if you're 2245 or 3145? I'm not seeing how you can easily promise the 5th diamond for your 2C rebid. I would think in my methods that 1d-1s-2c-2d would be the artificial force and even better than 2H for that purpose (where 2c shows C+4H, and you don't want to play in diamonds).
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### #9straube

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Posted 2012-May-07, 13:31

rbforster, on 2012-May-07, 13:19, said:

What do you do with xx45 after 1d-1h? Bid 2c, or fudge with off shape NTs/1S rebids if you're 2245 or 3145? I'm not seeing how you can easily promise the 5th diamond for your 2C rebid. I would think in my methods that 1d-1s-2c-2d would be the artificial force and even better than 2H for that purpose (where 2c shows C+4H, and you don't want to play in diamonds).

1D-1H, 1N includes 2245 but not 2254
1D-1H, 1S includes 3145 and partner can relay to find this out
1D-1H, 3C is 1345 and is admittedly wide-ranging 10-15. I like it, however, because opponent's almost certainly have an 8-cd spade fit and partner will know our best fit right away.
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### #10borag

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Posted 2012-May-08, 10:40

Hi rbforster,

I really like the power of 2m=6+m and don't want to loose that.
I also agree that 5m-4m should go somewhere else

And in a previous discussion I triggered

1 = 16+ hp
1 = 10-15 hp 4M-5m/ 4441
1M = 10-15 hp 5+M
1N = 12-15 hp bal or 5m4m(31)
2m = 10-15 hp 6+m
2M = weak
2N = 10-15 hp 5m-5m

which looses 11-12 bal hands and max 5m-5m hands (not enough space)
that was my favorite and still can switch to that.
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### #11rbforster

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Posted 2012-May-08, 21:59

straube, on 2012-May-07, 13:31, said:

1D-1H, 1N includes 2245 but not 2254
1D-1H, 1S includes 3145 and partner can relay to find this out
1D-1H, 3C is 1345 and is admittedly wide-ranging 10-15. I like it, however, because opponent's almost certainly have an 8-cd spade fit and partner will know our best fit right away.

1N seems ok with 2245. I would much rather raise hearts with 1345 than jump to 3C with all hands of that shape, but I haven't played that method so maybe it works better than it seems.

Can you describe your follow ups to 1d-1h-1s that might be only 3? There is lots of space with XYZ type methods, but i guess the loss might be responder has to pick between pass and 1N and might guess wrong based on the uncertain spade length.
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### #12straube

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Posted 2012-May-09, 00:08

rbforster, on 2012-May-08, 21:59, said:

1N seems ok with 2245. I would much rather raise hearts with 1345 than jump to 3C with all hands of that shape, but I haven't played that method so maybe it works better than it seems.

Can you describe your follow ups to 1d-1h-1s that might be only 3? There is lots of space with XYZ type methods, but i guess the loss might be responder has to pick between pass and 1N and might guess wrong based on the uncertain spade length.

I tested 1D-1H, 3C and we have an 8+ cd fit after 1D-1H, 3C about 85% of the time. Plus we go right into relay auctions after a 3S rebid (asks QPs).

Not worried about 3145. Seldom have it...never been passed in 1S. Much more worried about 1D P P

1D-1H, 1S-

.....2C is XYZ and we assume pd has 4 spades, we can play a 4-3 if opener wants or he can remove
.....2D
..........2H-5+ diamonds
...............2S-relays
..........2S-balanced
...............2N-relays
....................3C-4234
....................3D-4324
....................3H-4243
....................3S-4342
.....................3N-4333
..........2N-5 only clubs (not allowed 6)
...............3C-relays
....................3D-4135
....................3H-4225
....................3S-4315
...........3C-3145
...........3D-4144
...........3H-4045
...........3S-4054
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