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Kickback addicts

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 00:15

We had this auction on the partnership bidding table tonight.

1:1
2N:3
3N:4
4N*

Is 4N here kickback for spades or keycard for hearts? It seems like it could go either way so we devised the following
rule. If we have not agreed to a suit below the 4 level, 4N is ace ask for the suit immeidately preceding 4N.

How do others handle this?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#2 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 00:23

Responder's 4 sets hearts as trumps. If there was no Kickback, 4NT would be RKCB and 4 a cue bid. With Kickback these are reversed, i.e. 4 is RKCB and 4NT is a spade cue bid.
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#3 User is offline   frank0 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 00:29

Does 3 or 4 shows some slam interested hand? Otherwise how can the opener asking for key-card?
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#4 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 00:54

This auction doesn't make sense. A hand that tries to play 3N over 3 doesn't RKC after a 4 signoff.
Where there's ink there's squid Phil.
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#5 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 07:39

View Postnigel_k, on 2012-May-04, 00:23, said:

Responder's 4 sets hearts as trumps. If there was no Kickback, 4NT would be RKCB and 4 a cue bid. With Kickback these are reversed, i.e. 4 is RKCB and 4NT is a spade cue bid.

Isn't 4 a choice of games? How do we get to play in 4 here.

I am trying to find the hand, where do partnership bidding hands get logged when using Flash, or do they?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#6 User is offline   Flem72 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 09:26

View Postjillybean, on 2012-May-04, 07:39, said:

Isn't 4 a choice of games? How do we get to play in 4 here.

I am trying to find the hand, where do partnership bidding hands get logged when using Flash, or do they?


If you are playing the Wolff 3D checkback as per your other thread, 3S should show slammish, at least 4-5, and 4H usually 4-6. Dontcha think?
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#7 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 09:57

In your other thread, you said you now include the Wolff Sign-off.
Thus, 3D! would be a GF, asking for the Majors.
So... what does the direct 3S rebid show ?
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#8 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 10:11

I thought 3 was just forward going, second suit, neutral as to slam interest.
3 checkback is asking for more information from partner, asking bid.
3 is slam on the breaks so we can get out below game.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#9 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 11:07

View Postjillybean, on 2012-May-04, 00:15, said:

We had this auction on the partnership bidding table tonight.

1:1
2N:3
3N:4
4N*

Is 4N here kickback for spades or keycard for hearts? It seems like it could go either way so we devised the following
rule. If we have not agreed to a suit below the 4 level, 4N is ace ask for the suit immeidately preceding 4N.

How do others handle this?


1 ) I assume 3S ostensibly is showing 5h/4s GF, but as you say, not slammish

2 ) 3NT denies 3h and denies 4s

3 ) 4H must be showing 6h/4s

4 ) Surely, Opener has not found another Sp somewhere, so any RKC-asking bid should be for .
If you play kickbak, then RKC should be 4S!, but maybe Opener thought that would be "to play"
in a Moysian fit, so he bid 4NT as RKC for

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If it went via the 3D! route instead, then Spades would not have been mentioned as a suit and clearly 4S! would have been kickback [ a 4-4 fit is still in the picture using 3D! ] :
1D - 1H
2NT - 3D!
??
.. 3S = 1st priority : 4 cards Sp, but may have 3 cards Hts
.. 3H = 2nd priority: 3 cards Hts, but no 4 cards Sp
...3NT = denies 3h and denies 4s )

After:
3NT - 4H ( 6+ cards Hts )
4S! ( kickback - RKC for )
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#10 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 14:35

Maybe there are different styles. I would always use checkback with no slam interest. Once opener bids 3NT over 3, spades are ruled out as a trump suit unless responder is 5-6 and continues with 4. So this sounds like 4-6 with slam interest and opener can accept by cue bidding.
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#11 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-May-06, 08:41

I think you're right on all counts, we are revisiting the auction. Thank you :)
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-May-17, 05:04

So, playing walsh signoff and kickback where

1:1M
2N:
....3 is a relay to 3 pass or correct to 3M
....3 checkback
....3M slammish

then

1:1
2N:3 *slam interest 5/4+
3 confirming 3 spades, neutral to slam interest, responder is obliged to cue
3N 2344
4/ cue in support of
4 confirming 4 hearts, denying cue (this is an impossible bid? unless you hold QJ,AKQJ,QJx,QJxxx)
4 kickback
4N cue in support of

&

1:1
2N:3 *slam interest 5/4
3N 3244
4/4 cue in support of
4 confirming 3 hearts, neutral to slam interest, responder is obliged to cue
4 confirming 4 spades, denying cue
4N kickback

Howzat?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#13 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-17, 07:03

View Postjillybean, on 2012-May-04, 00:15, said:

How do others handle this?


Not playing kickback
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#14 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-May-17, 14:46

View Postjillybean, on 2012-May-17, 05:04, said:

So, playing walsh signoff and kickback where ...

I don't think opener is required to cue bid with a really unsuitable hand, though they usually will.

On the first one, opener definitely is not required to go beyond 4 in order to make a spade cue bid, so a hand like AQ AQxx QJx QJxx would bid 4.

When responder reverses, as on the second one, a cue bid should set hearts, not spades. It's awkward because you don't have space to do everything but hands with three hearts and less than four spades are more common than hands with four spades and two hearts. The other thing is that when opener has a suitable hand for slam they need to be able to cue bid regardless of which major they support - but if opener has heart support they really don't want to hear a leap to 6.

I think it takes a more sophisticated method than Wolff to avoid this.
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#15 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-May-17, 14:57

Quote

How do others handle this?


Not playing kickback


I mean, srsly...
I think everybody would be better off just getting rid of it. Even Levin-Weinstein screw it up recently and it seems it confuses people to no end. For what it's worth top Italian and Polish pairs don't play kickback in any sequence (I am not sure if there is anybody in Poland who ever played it ;)).
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#16 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-May-17, 15:06

Thanks...

View Postnigel_k, on 2012-May-17, 14:46, said:

On the first one, opener definitely is not required to go beyond 4 in order to make a spade cue bid, so a hand like AQ AQxx QJx QJxx would bid 4.

Opener has shown 18-19 and responder is showing slam interest, is it really dangerous to make a first cue at the 5 level, if promising 1st round control?


View Postnigel_k, on 2012-May-17, 14:46, said:

When responder reverses, as on the second one, a cue bid should set hearts, not spades. It's awkward because you don't have space to do everything but hands with three hearts and less than four spades are more common than hands with four spades and two hearts. The other thing is that when opener has a suitable hand for slam they need to be able to cue bid regardless of which major they support - but if opener has heart support they really don't want to hear a leap to 6.

This is very complicated, and I'm sure that I would forget it. I understand it will be more common to have heart support but what is wrong with using 4 to set hearts and let responder make the first cue if as above, we should be safe at the 5 level?

View Postnigel_k, on 2012-May-17, 14:46, said:

I think it takes a more sophisticated method than Wolff to avoid this.

Maybe later :)
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#17 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-May-17, 15:10

View PostFluffy, on 2012-May-17, 07:03, said:

Not playing kickback



View Postbluecalm, on 2012-May-17, 14:57, said:

I mean, srsly...
I think everybody would be better off just getting rid of it. Even Levin-Weinstein screw it up recently and it seems it confuses people to no end. For what it's worth top Italian and Polish pairs don't play kickback in any sequence (I am not sure if there is anybody in Poland who ever played it ;)).


I have floated this idea with my partner too but this is a infrequent auction and I'm not sure that it is one that justifies throwing out KB.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#18 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-May-18, 01:23

View Postjillybean, on 2012-May-04, 00:15, said:

We had this auction on the partnership bidding table tonight.

1:1
2N:3
3N:4
4N*

Is 4N here kickback for spades or keycard for hearts? It seems like it could go either way so we devised the following
rule. If we have not agreed to a suit below the 4 level, 4N is ace ask for the suit immeidately preceding 4N.

How do others handle this?



jb as you know I play kickback


4nt cannot be kickback for hearts ever....never
so the question becomes is 4nt kickback, ace asking, for spades or a cuebid in spades agreeing hearts.
or is 4nt natural to play.

let me put it another way, If you dont play kickback what is 4nt? I just dont see how that helps solve the problem.


for starters this bid is so rare I am not going to worry about it...........and pard would never bid it.

with no alerts I guess pard has 6h and 5s but you deny any 3 card major?
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#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-May-18, 08:03

View Postmike777, on 2012-May-18, 01:23, said:

4nt cannot be kickback for hearts ever....never

This is true, but even playing Kickback there are situations, usually where both majors are still in the picture as a trump suit and the bidding is at 4 (or 4), where it is a good idea to play 4NT as RKCB for hearts. In such situations you can often extend the principle so that 5 is RKCB for spades if you want to make that agreement.
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#20 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-May-18, 09:05

View Postjillybean, on 2012-May-17, 05:04, said:

So, playing walsh signoff and kickback where

1:1M
2N:
....3 is a relay to 3 pass or correct to 3M
....3 checkback
....3M slammish

then

1:1
2N:3 *slam interest 5/4+
3 confirming 3 spades, neutral to slam interest, responder is obliged to cue
3N 2344
4/ cue in support of
4 confirming 4 hearts, denying cue (this is an impossible bid? unless you hold QJ,AKQJ,QJx,QJxxx)
4 kickback
4N cue in support of

&

1:1
2N:3 *slam interest 5/4
3N 3244
4/4 cue in support of
4 confirming 3 hearts, neutral to slam interest, responder is obliged to cue
4 confirming 4 spades, denying cue
4N kickback

Howzat?

In the pacific NW, where you and I play, kathryn, the normal opening call with 3244 is 1, not 1, so your 3244 hands don't work after a 1 opening: I'd expect 3235.

On the OP topic: once responder bids 4, opener having retreated to 3N over 3, it is impossible for there to be a spade fit....so it makes zero sense for any call to be keycard for spades.

In addition, if 4 was to play, there can be no hands on which a keycard answer allows opener to bid slam. I personally think that there would be very few hands on which opener can keycard even if 4 shows slam interest, but I probably use keycard less often than most. If I were to use keycard, then kickback makes sense, with 4N becoming a spade cue.

Opener retreating to a natural 4N makes no sense: responder is at least 4=6 majors, and I don't care how loaded opener is in the minors....opener has already denied interest in either major and responder has overruled him/her.

As for methods, I play with two fine players who love wolff, but I think it is distinctly inferior, on most hands, to transfers after the 2N rebid.

Kickback is fine. Just because no italians or poles play it is irrelevant: why not argue that no NAs play what the italians play, so the italians should stop playing their methods?

But kickback is like any other convention: you and your partner need to have agreements. My view is that you specify when it applies, and never, ever assume that it applies in any other situation. IOW, if you are in a previously undiscussed auction, and it makes sense to use kickback, don't.....since you haven't specifically agreed that it applies here, it doesn't apply. Then, after the hand, agree (if you want) that in future it does. In that way, you avoid guessing games at the table. Of course, you should also exchange written notes setting out the rules, so as to minimize the chances of this happening.
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