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Precision 1 Club Opening versus Gazzilli Just thinking aloud here

#1 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-May-03, 06:55

Have a look at what awm said in point 4 to this thread: Shape First!

Comparing a Precision 1C opening to Natural Systems incorporating Gazzilli
Precision………………........Gazzilli
Opens 1C with 16+……......After 1M-1NT-2C = 16+ (normally, depending on version)
Responds 1D with 0-7….....Allowed to pass with 0-4 (5) depending on agreements
Anything else = 8+……......After 1M-1NT-2C-2D = 8+, anything else = 5-7

Advantages of a Precision 1C opener
• You announce a big hand to partner
• Initiates a GF auction after a positive response
• Maximum room to explore for best spot
Disadvantages
• You haven’t shown a suit yet
• Open to pre-emption from the opponents

Advantages of a Natural System incorporating Gazzilli
• You’ve shown a real suit with your first bid
• You can still initiate a GF auction after 1M-1NT-2C, depending on a) responders second bid, b) openers actual HCP holding and distribution
• The 5332 hands can be removed from your 1NT bids, no more PS sequences, freeing up bidding room for showing other hand types
• You can signoff on level 2 when both opener and responder are minimum
Disadvantages
• In 2/1, 1NT over 1M is forcing for 1 round. You no longer have a natural 2C second bid with a minimum hand. May be forced to repeat the M with nothing else available
• Opening a real suit allows cue-bidding of the suit opened e.g. Michaels, Unusual 2NT etc.
• Responder often has a very awkward second bid, sometimes forced to bid 2 of the major opened, even with a singleton
• A 2NT or 3NT contract gets played from the wrong side

Have the Italians spotted an inherent weakness in strong club systems and have found a workaround? These are just a couple of random thoughts from myself. Others may see the issue entirely differently.
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#2 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-May-03, 07:00

I predict that manudude will try to give a sensible answer to this question even though he should have realised by now that it is pointless.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
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#3 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-May-03, 07:31

You have spotted the difference between 1 - 1 = game forcing and the equivalent sequence using Gazilli, right? Gazilli is a way of improving natural, it is not a workaround for a strong club.
(-: Zel :-)
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#4 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-May-03, 08:01

Quote

In 2/1, 1NT over 1M is forcing for 1 round. You no longer have a natural 2C second bid with a minimum hand. May be forced to repeat the M with nothing else available


This is wrong. All Italian pairs play 1NT as semi-forcing which means they pass with every 5-3-3-2 in 12-14hcp range.
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#5 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 02:29

There are already plenty of other threads discussing Gazzilli / BART / Riton 2 which can be thrown into the mix here for further discussion. And yes, there are plenty of different versions floating around. The issue is to optimise the one you are using.
The Italians are 14 times Bermuda Bowl champions (only surpassed by the USA). Gazzilli originated with them, so they must have had a very good reason for doing so.

For those interested, here are some of those older threads.

Gazzilli
1. What’s standard Gazzilli?
2. Gazzilli and the 2NT rebid
3. One question about Gazzilli
4. A Gazzilli problem
5. An alternative to Gazzilli
6. Kaplan Inversion and Gazzilli

BART
1. BART
2. Elementary question on BART convention
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#6 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 05:08

View Post32519, on 2012-May-04, 02:29, said:

There are already plenty of other threads discussing Gazzilli etc. ...

and it has been compared to many others, not just Precision 1 Club Opening, including:

Gazzilli Vs. Mothra
Gazzilli Vs. Monster Zero
Gazzilli Vs. the Sea Monster
Gazzilli Vs. Hedorah
Gazzilli Vs. Gigan
Gazzilli Vs. Megalon
Gazzilli Vs. MechaGazzilli
Gazzilli Vs. Biollante
Gazzilli Vs. King Ghidorah
Gazzilli Vs. MechaGazzilli II
Gazzilli Vs. SpaceGazzilli
Gazzilli Vs. Destoroyah
Gazzilli Vs. Megaguirus
Gazzilli Vs. King Kong
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#7 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 06:38

View Postglen, on 2012-May-04, 05:08, said:

and it has been compared to many others, not just Precision 1 Club Opening, including:

Gazzilli Vs. Mothra
Gazzilli Vs. Monster Zero
Gazzilli Vs. the Sea Monster
Gazzilli Vs. Hedorah
Gazzilli Vs. Gigan
Gazzilli Vs. Megalon
Gazzilli Vs. MechaGazzilli
Gazzilli Vs. Biollante
Gazzilli Vs. King Ghidorah
Gazzilli Vs. MechaGazzilli II
Gazzilli Vs. SpaceGazzilli
Gazzilli Vs. Destoroyah
Gazzilli Vs. Megaguirus
Gazzilli Vs. King Kong


Scoff all you want, but maybe there is more than meets the eye here. Show your shape, optimal use of available bidding space, sidestepping an immediate pre-empt, etc.

Maybe, just maybe, others haven’t yet recognised the benefits of Gazzilli in a natural system and/or haven’t worked out an optimal continuation structure yet.

There are currently 7 Italians ranked in the top 20 (including Fantoni-Nunes who now play for Monaco). Numbers 1-5 are all Italians. None play Precision anymore despite the phenomenal success of the Blue Team years ago.
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#8 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 07:07

View Post32519, on 2012-May-04, 06:38, said:

There are currently 7 Italians ranked in the top 20 (including Fantoni-Nunes who now play for Monaco). Numbers 1-5 are all Italians. None play Precision anymore despite the phenomenal success of the Blue Team years ago.


Its obligatory to mention that Precision is not a system traditionally associated with the Blue Team.

Yes, they played lots of systems with artificial 1 openings.

  • Neopolitan Club
  • Roman Club
  • Blue Club


However, Precision is notably absent from that list.

Please note: I am aware that CC Wei bribed Benito Garozzo and partners to switch over to use "Super Precision".
However, I consider this to be pecuniary decision rather than a real statement regarding the merits of the various systems.

FWIW, I do think that there is some merit to your basic observation.

Having a wide range for most opening bids is often cited as a weakness for "natural" systems.
Gazilli mitigates some of these problems.

In theory, this could impact the relative merits of a strong club system versus a natural system.

However, as is oft the case, you're trying to turn a rather banal observation into something "big"
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#9 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 09:18

View Post32519, on 2012-May-04, 06:38, said:

Scoff all you want

Wasn't scoff, it was related to my 2004 rgb thread:

rgb Gazzilli
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#10 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 20:33

You can't compare a system to a convention.
A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem – Albert Einstein
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#11 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-May-05, 01:13

View PostStatto, on 2012-May-04, 20:33, said:

You can't compare a system to a convention.


I fully accept this and wasn’t trying to compare a system with a convention. I was merely sharing some random thoughts on the 16+ HCP 1 opener in Precision with Gazzilli. I had another look at some of the Italian CC’s. Unfortunately the ones I could find may not be the latest.

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-May-03, 08:01, said:

This is wrong. All Italian pairs play 1NT as semi-forcing which means they pass with every 5-3-3-2 in 12-14hcp range.


Nonetheless, 1/1/1/1 tend to show an unbalanced hand with 14+ HCP. The 1NT opening bid shows (11) 12-14 HCP, balanced or semi-balanced. The 12-14 HCP range may contain any 5332 or 5422 holding, excluding 5-4 in the majors. For these guys to have Gazzilli in this sort of system actually starts making more and more sense to me. The first bid has already conveyed plenty of info, if a suit, then an unbalanced hand. The CC’s say 2/1 bidding style, which clarifies bluecalm's statement above that 1M-1NT may be passed out with 12-14 HCP. After 1M-1NT-2 Gazzilli kicks in announcing a bigger hand. 2 now from responder shows 8+ and you enter a GF auction. You already know that, a) responder doesn’t have 3-card support for the suit opened, and b) that opener’s hand is unbalanced. Yet you have chosen to go the Gazzilli route; why would that be?

Some more random thoughts on this:
1. The 5332 hands 12-14 HCP fall into the 1NT range. Choosing the Gazzilli route, apart from the higher HCP range, opener may have a 6-card major.
2. The 1NT bids specifically exclude a 5-4 holding in the majors. So after 1-1NT-2-2, with 2 showing a 4-card suit and 5-7 HCP, you can still find the 4-4 fit and signoff if necessary. With a bigger hand, you can bid the game.
3. Similarly, after 1-1NT-2-2, with 2 showing 8+ HCP, opener can now show the suit. With 4-card support, the game is an easy find now.
4. Repeating what was said previously, bidding this way has plenty of advantages over the strong artificial 1.
a. You get to show a real suit immediately
b. You announce an unbalanced hand, a hand which may not be suitable for playing in NT
c. You’ve shown the lower end of your HCP range, 14+ HCP
d. You have sidestepped an immediate pre-empt from the opponents before you were able to show what your real suit is.

Guys, I’m just thinking aloud here hoping that others with better information than myself can make some valuable contributions to this discussion. From what has already been said, it also starts making more sense to me why so many of the Italians use the 2 bid to show the 18-19 HCP balanced hand. It actually fits neatly into this structure.
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#12 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-May-05, 22:42

Here is another completely random thought on Gazzilli:

Various partnerships have briefly flirted with Gazzilli before giving up on it. Why did they give up? The reason could possibly be one or a combination of the following –
1. They were trying to include it into a system that it wasn’t designed for.
2. They were trying to include it in a way that it wasn’t designed for.
3. They were unable to design an effective continuation bidding structure suitable for their system. Why would that be? Because of points 1 + 2 above.
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#13 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2012-May-06, 04:09

View Post32519, on 2012-May-05, 22:42, said:

Here is another completely random thought on Gazzilli:


I almost wish that Foo were still around.

The thought of a long exchange between him and 32519 boggles the mind
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