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xxx Qxx AKQJTxx void

#1 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 11:11

So in bidding practice, partner opens 1S with 5+S and 10-15. My choices seem to be...

1) GF artificial relay with 2C
2) sign off in 4S
3) splinter

Systemically, I can't show diamonds. I chose to splinter. Interested in what others would do.
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#2 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 11:21

Isn't one of the reasons you play relays is to get to slam across from AKxxx AJx xx xxx?
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#3 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 11:22

Can't even bid 2D then catch-up in spades later? If not, then I'll go for "GF artificial relay with 2C".

ahydra
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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 11:34

View PostPhil, on 2012-May-01, 11:21, said:

Isn't one of the reasons you play relays is to get to slam across from AKxxx AJx xx xxx?


Good luck designing a relay system where you can find shape and honors up to jacks below 4S.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 11:42

View Posthan, on 2012-May-01, 11:34, said:

Good luck designing a relay system where you can find shape and honors up to jacks below 4S.


Then I assume we can get controls and shape under 4?

I'd still go.
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#6 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 11:50

Hard to know without actually knowing your very unusual system. This does not seem to be a tell hand, though, it appears to be a hand that needs to ask specific information from partner - IE, you know slam is good if partner has AKQ of spades and a heart control, or some other combinations. Try and make bids that will elicit that information from partner, since you cannot make any bids that will actually describe your hand reasonably enough to have partner make an intelligent decision.
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 11:58

I can't answer this without knowing more about the relay. For example, opposite AKxxx AKJx x xxx, we'd want to be in 7 :P

I suspect that going the full relay will mean committing to at least 5 if we find the spade AK and the heart A, regardless of shape.

Having played a relay method, I know that one of the issues is that partner's responses, with extreme shape, usually have to be very space consuming.....

Does the relay go shape, then controls, then location of cards? Do we always define exact shape, and how many relays are needed? Can we skip exact shape to got to controls? How do we show location?

How do we break the relay, and what inferences are available to opener when we do?

Based on what I know, I'd at least start with the relay.

BTW, while I ask all these questions, I am not inviting a detailed reply....I have zero interest in your actual system, since I don't plan on playing a big club anytime soon.
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#8 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 12:20

View PostPhil, on 2012-May-01, 11:21, said:

Isn't one of the reasons you play relays is to get to slam across from AKxxx AJx xx xxx?


Yeah, but that example hand has 8 QPs (A=3, K=2, Q=1) and I have only 7 QPs for a total of 15 out of 24 QPs.

Partner could potentially have Jxxxx xxx x AKQJ and open 1S.

I don't know of a relay system that could disambiguate this before 4S has been passed. One needs more stuff.

On this hand, I want to tell partner 1) source of tricks 2) void and 3) fit but have no good way to do so.

I listed 2C GF relay, but I don't care for that. I think I'd get more info out of RKC (and that's more obviously poor). For me the choice is between a splinter (lying about trump support) or giving up and bidding 4S (partner doesn't have the cards I need).
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#9 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 13:07

View PostPhil, on 2012-May-01, 11:42, said:

Then I assume we can get controls and shape under 4?


How does that help you? You gave partner zero points in clubs, no way you can know close to that with relays unless it is much too late.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#10 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 13:17

View Posthan, on 2012-May-01, 13:07, said:

How does that help you? You gave partner zero points in clubs, no way you can know close to that with relays unless it is much too late.


True - maybe one round of denial cue bidding could tell us no club wastage.
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#11 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 13:22

View Poststraube, on 2012-May-01, 11:11, said:

Systemically, I can't show diamonds.


Really? This may be the system flaw of all time.
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#12 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 13:56

View Postggwhiz, on 2012-May-01, 13:22, said:

Really? This may be the system flaw of all time.


I don't count it as such. We have pretty much the same problem with other relayers who start 1C (16+) and then partner starts to show a potentially 5332 hand...which sucks when opener has a distributional hand.

I know that some play early relay breaks to show a void. Is anyone familiar with how that works? That would be 1S-2C, 2D-break...but I don't know the continuations.
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#13 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-May-02, 20:14

Fit jump / strong single suit with 3? This hand almost seems to fall into both categories...
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#14 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-May-02, 22:24

View Poststraube, on 2012-May-01, 13:56, said:

I don't count it as such. We have pretty much the same problem with other relayers who start 1C (16+) and then partner starts to show a potentially 5332 hand...which sucks when opener has a distributional hand.

I know that some play early relay breaks to show a void. Is anyone familiar with how that works? That would be 1S-2C, 2D-break...but I don't know the continuations.


Make the continuations up yourself. There is not a lot published about relay breaks. We did the following:

1C 1H Shows S)
break - now showed the suit that responder bid, not showed. It also showed a min C opening. This doesn't help you much though.
You could also hit one relay and then set S at a low level with KC

eg
1S 2C
2D 2S
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#15 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-May-02, 22:44

Yeah. It's been evolving. See my thread in the nonnatural system on relay breaks. It would be nice to perfect it.
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#16 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-03, 13:36

I would relay, we might belong to 3NT!.

Even if you relay first it doesn´t mean you cannot break does it?, in my system after 2 I can bid GF 3 diamonds, I have another option using keycard for spades and then showing the void but that would most likelly end up at the 5 level so its worse than splinter.

For me the perfect hand is not AK of hearts, its AKQ of spades with singleton heart.
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#17 User is offline   petterb 

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Posted 2012-May-03, 17:37

View Poststraube, on 2012-May-01, 11:11, said:

I chose to splinter.

A splinter over a 1M opening should deliver at least 4-card support. It's impossible for opener to judge how to proceed if it can be done with only 3-card support.
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