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X and bid a new suit over 2C precision Flexible hands or big overcall ?

#1 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 10:49

(2C*)--X--(P)--2D
(P)--???

* precision

What does 2H/2S mean ?

a flexible hand 54 in the majors or a hand too good for a direct 2M (around 19 pts) ?
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#2 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 11:19

I play it as strong, just as if they had opened 1C. If you chose to double with 4522 you just have to suck it up and pass 2D.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 11:51

2 is basically the same as a standard 1, except that it is limited in hcp and definitely promises clubs. The takeout double should therefore be the same as a takeout double of 1, which, after all, implies shortness in clubs.

The only difference is that one would probably not stretch to bid over a 2 opening.....iow, you might double 1 on a nice 4441 10 count, while you might choose to need at least a good 11 or 12 count with this shape to do it at the 2-level.

Given that you are really using the same scheme over this 2 as you are over 1, it makes sense to play as Justin suggests, and as I think is standard: 2M is strong....presumably a good 16 count (or so, depending on partnership taste and style) and usually a 6+ suit.

I guess I could just have upvoted Justin, since I am not really adding value to his comment.
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#4 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 12:24

Doesn't it depend on what you use a 3M overcall for?
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#5 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 14:38

View PostPhil, on 2012-April-25, 12:24, said:

Doesn't it depend on what you use a 3M overcall for?

Yes, but this is not a preempt over a preempt situation. Opener has announced 11-15 hcp, and while it is limited, it is a constructive call, not an attempt to distort the auction. So in my experience, it is common and reasonable to play that 3M retains the meaning if would have after a 1 opening.
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#6 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 17:24

A lot of people play intermediate jumps over a precision 2C. I don't see why that changes whether X then 2S would be strong, we can have a hand that is both flexible and strong, just as over a preempt. Perhaps I misunderstood the wording, I thought OP was asking if X then 2M could just be no extras and 54 majors.
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#7 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-April-26, 01:44

I'm not sure what the standard meaning is, if any, but I think it should be ELC-type.

It's very different from bidding over a 1 opening. After a one-level overcall, you often get a chance to find a fit in the other major: partner may advance 1 or 1NT, or the opponents may bid something which lets you show your second suit, either directly or by doubling. For example, with a 4522 14-count you might bid
1 1 pass pass
dbl 1
but you wouldn't do the same thing at the two-level.

Also, after a one-level overcall gets doubled, partner will often run with something like a 4144 shape, but he'll be less inclined to do so at the two-level, because he expects a better suit. (Maybe this argument is circular though.)
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#8 User is offline   dave_w 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 21:28

All your problems on this auction are solved. 2 is lebensohl and 2 is forced on minimum hands. Of course when you have diamonds things are trickier but that's another issue!
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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-May-02, 00:45

View Postdave_w, on 2012-May-01, 21:28, said:

All your problems on this auction are solved. 2 is lebensohl and 2 is forced on minimum hands. Of course when you have diamonds things are trickier but that's another issue!

That might solve another problem, but it doesn't solve this one - it makes it worse. In your methods we can't show either the ELC-type or the strong hand.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#10 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-May-02, 00:53

Fwiw, i also like to play 2D as "lebensohl," which is a herbert negative in this sequence.
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