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X and bid a new suit over 2C precision Flexible hands or big overcall ?

#1 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 10:49

(2C*)--X--(P)--2D
(P)--???

* precision

What does 2H/2S mean ?

a flexible hand 54 in the majors or a hand too good for a direct 2M (around 19 pts) ?
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#2 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 11:19

I play it as strong, just as if they had opened 1C. If you chose to double with 4522 you just have to suck it up and pass 2D.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 11:51

2 is basically the same as a standard 1, except that it is limited in hcp and definitely promises clubs. The takeout double should therefore be the same as a takeout double of 1, which, after all, implies shortness in clubs.

The only difference is that one would probably not stretch to bid over a 2 opening.....iow, you might double 1 on a nice 4441 10 count, while you might choose to need at least a good 11 or 12 count with this shape to do it at the 2-level.

Given that you are really using the same scheme over this 2 as you are over 1, it makes sense to play as Justin suggests, and as I think is standard: 2M is strong....presumably a good 16 count (or so, depending on partnership taste and style) and usually a 6+ suit.

I guess I could just have upvoted Justin, since I am not really adding value to his comment.
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#4 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 12:24

Doesn't it depend on what you use a 3M overcall for?
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#5 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 14:38

View PostPhil, on 2012-April-25, 12:24, said:

Doesn't it depend on what you use a 3M overcall for?

Yes, but this is not a preempt over a preempt situation. Opener has announced 11-15 hcp, and while it is limited, it is a constructive call, not an attempt to distort the auction. So in my experience, it is common and reasonable to play that 3M retains the meaning if would have after a 1 opening.
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#6 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-April-25, 17:24

A lot of people play intermediate jumps over a precision 2C. I don't see why that changes whether X then 2S would be strong, we can have a hand that is both flexible and strong, just as over a preempt. Perhaps I misunderstood the wording, I thought OP was asking if X then 2M could just be no extras and 54 majors.
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#7 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-April-26, 01:44

I'm not sure what the standard meaning is, if any, but I think it should be ELC-type.

It's very different from bidding over a 1 opening. After a one-level overcall, you often get a chance to find a fit in the other major: partner may advance 1 or 1NT, or the opponents may bid something which lets you show your second suit, either directly or by doubling. For example, with a 4522 14-count you might bid
1 1 pass pass
dbl 1
but you wouldn't do the same thing at the two-level.

Also, after a one-level overcall gets doubled, partner will often run with something like a 4144 shape, but he'll be less inclined to do so at the two-level, because he expects a better suit. (Maybe this argument is circular though.)
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#8 User is offline   dave_w 

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Posted 2012-May-01, 21:28

All your problems on this auction are solved. 2 is lebensohl and 2 is forced on minimum hands. Of course when you have diamonds things are trickier but that's another issue!
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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-May-02, 00:45

View Postdave_w, on 2012-May-01, 21:28, said:

All your problems on this auction are solved. 2 is lebensohl and 2 is forced on minimum hands. Of course when you have diamonds things are trickier but that's another issue!

That might solve another problem, but it doesn't solve this one - it makes it worse. In your methods we can't show either the ELC-type or the strong hand.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#10 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-May-02, 00:53

Fwiw, i also like to play 2D as "lebensohl," which is a herbert negative in this sequence.
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