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tempo - too quick

#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 19:44



Strong pass system. 1 showed s, 8-12 pts.
4 came after some thought, then 4 & double followed "in quick succession."
No screens, no alerts beyond 3NT.

-1100

The problem for EW is the meaning of double.
Systemically it means "I have high ODR, I'm happy to be at the 5-level."
It's a good method but West forgot, quickly.

Declarer called the director at the end and suggested that East should have bid 5.
That the decision to pass might have been influenced by the quick double.
East admitted that partner had a record of forgetting this agreement but that it was a verbal agreement, not in the system notes.
Director went away and polled a few of East's peers.

What did he rule?
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#2 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 21:33

Does Australia have a "skip bid" regulation? If it does, what does it say?
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#3 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 21:50

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-23, 21:33, said:

Does Australia have a "skip bid" regulation? If it does, what does it say?


There is no skip bid regulation in practice. They tried to introduce one a few years ago but it has been totally ignored (we don't even have stop cards in the bidding box), and there is no expectation of a pause after this bid.

The law may still be on the books for all I know though.

EDIT: It turns out they are. Nobody would know what to do if a stop card were played in most events.
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#4 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 21:51

ABF regulations are here: http://www.abf.com.a...s/ABFwbbb10.pdf

Relevant sections are below. Note that most conditions of contest do not mandate the use of the stop card. As sfi says, no-one ever actually uses it (and not all boxes actually have a stop card...). Bids at the 4 level are considered self alerting to.

Quote

1.5 The use of Stop Cards is authorized for ABF controlled Tournaments and recommended for use in other tournaments. The use of Stop Cards for a particular tournament, or for a particular event within a tournament, is at the discretion of the Tournament Organiser.

[...]

1.5.2 Before a player makes a bid that skips one or more levels, a Stop Card should be placed face up on the table in front of the left-hand opponent. After an appropriate period (approximately 10 seconds but less at one’s own discretion) the person who made the skip
bid picks up the Stop Card, whereupon the left hand opponent may then call.

[...]

1.5.4 When a player omits to use the Stop Card before making a Skip Bid, or apply the mandatory 10 second pause when required, the failure to do so may be taken into account by the Director, and subsequently by an Appeals Committee, when assessing what action to take with respect to possible extraneous information (Law 16).

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#5 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 22:01

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-23, 21:33, said:

Does Australia have a "skip bid" regulation? If it does, what does it say?

Do skip bid regs address the concerns about quick doubles of bids which were quick?

I don't think we can make a case that the fast 4S bid didn't give the next hand time to slow down.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 22:05

It may not matter here, but if there is a regulation in force, the fact that people ignore should not lead to rulings that also ignore it (see Law 81C).

The other point I'd like to make is that whether an agreement is verbal only, or not in the system notes, is irrelevant. EW clearly have a "partnership understanding" as to the meaning of double here. Also that understanding includes the fact that West "has a record of forgetting".
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#7 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 22:12

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-23, 22:05, said:

It may not matter here, but if there is a regulation in force, the fact that people ignore should not lead to rulings that also ignore it (see Law 81C).


That may be, but in this case absolutely nobody - including directors - pay attention to it. The only time I have heard it even referred to was at a captains' meeting for a national event a few years ago. Someone mentioned that a pair had something about 'we require everyone to hesitate over our skip bids' on their card, and the tournament director's response was 'ignore that; we don't do that in this country'.
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#8 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 22:17

Then you all ought to get together and lobby the ABF to either rescind the regulation, or require its use and enforcement.
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#9 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 22:20

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-23, 22:17, said:

Then you all ought to get together and lobby the ABF to either rescind the regulation, or require its use and enforcement.


We're a nation of ex-convicts. We just ignore the regulations we don't like. ;)

Now that I know it's still on the books, I might have to do that.
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#10 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 22:47

Why are we obsessing over the skip bid regulation? First of all, the regulation specifically says that it's at the discretion of the TO -- does this TO require them?

And even if they do, it doesn't apply here. The player whose quick bid is at issue is West, not South. Since South didn't make a skip bid, West was under no obligation to wait. So I think we're just in ordinary 73D1 territory -- doubling too quickly probably isn't maintaining "steady tempo".

But as far as the ruling goes, I'm not sure that the fast double demonstrably suggests that he's forgotten the agreement. If someone is having trouble remembering an agreement, they'll usually take LONGER than normal, as they struggle to try to remember. If they bid quickly, couldn't it just as easily be because the agreement is fresh in their mind?

#11 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 22:47

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-23, 22:05, said:

It may not matter here, but if there is a regulation in force, the fact that people ignore should not lead to rulings that also ignore it (see Law 81C).


I think the ABF is trying to say "If you want to use stop cards at your event, here is how you are going to do it, but the Tournament Organiser is operating at his own discretion when deciding if his tournament will use them or not"
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#12 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 22:49

View Postsfi, on 2012-April-23, 22:20, said:

We're a nation of ex-convicts. We just ignore the regulations we don't like. ;)

Now that I know it's still on the books, I might have to do that.

Agree. It takes all the fun out of ignoring regs, if you don't know about them.
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#13 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 23:02

View Postbarmar, on 2012-April-23, 22:47, said:

Why are we obsessing over the skip bid regulation? First of all, the regulation specifically says that it's at the discretion of the TO -- does this TO require them?

And even if they do, it doesn't apply here. The player whose quick bid is at issue is West, not South. Since South didn't make a skip bid, West was under no obligation to wait. So I think we're just in ordinary 73D1 territory -- doubling too quickly probably isn't maintaining "steady tempo".

But as far as the ruling goes, I'm not sure that the fast double demonstrably suggests that he's forgotten the agreement. If someone is having trouble remembering an agreement, they'll usually take LONGER than normal, as they struggle to try to remember. If they bid quickly, couldn't it just as easily be because the agreement is fresh in their mind?


Well, I was wondering if the fast bid over the skip bid might affect whether the double was considered in tempo. Granted, normally we're more concerned with long breaks in tempo than short ones, but… anyway, I agree with your last paragraph.
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#14 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-April-23, 23:10

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-23, 23:02, said:

Well, I was wondering if the fast bid over the skip bid might affect whether the double was considered in tempo.

I think we've had discussions before about a related situation: There's a skip bid, the next player doesn't wait the required time, and then the next player hesitates a few extra seconds. Some say that this hesitation is OK, because he's allowed to use the time he would have been thinking while his RHO was making his required hesitation.

This seems to be the flip-side of that: if his RHO doesn't hesitate, is he EXPECTED to take that time?

I haven't heard of any skip-bid regulations that directly address either of these. So I think it's up to TD judgement whether this is considered steady tempo.

#15 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-April-24, 04:54

In my experience fast doubles are more penalty-oriented than slow ones. In particular, a "High ODR" double that doesn't have any aces is unlikely to be made quickly. With something like x KJxxx KJxxx Kx, you're likely to take a few seconds before acting. Hence I think it's clear that the UI suggests pass over bidding.

East is probably worth a slam try, but it's not clear what slam try to make - presumably 5 would be a suggestion to play there. Maybe East should just bid slam.

The UI also suggests 5 over a stronger action, so I'm inclined to adjust to 6-1. I'd like to see the poll results before deciding though.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#16 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-April-24, 06:16

View Postgnasher, on 2012-April-24, 04:54, said:

East is probably worth a slam try, but it's not clear what slam try to make - presumably 5 would be a suggestion to play there. Maybe East should just bid slam.

Why would 5 be a suggestion to play there ? The club opener said nothing about clubs, if this hand wanted to put clubs into the equation he could have done so last time, 5-P-5 whould be the normal continuation if 4x is removed.
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#17 User is offline   c_corgi 

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Posted 2012-April-24, 06:30

Over 5C P 5H P ? slam is still firmly on the agenda. x KJxxx xx KQJxx seems quite a likely hand, the club sequence being more in line with the high ODR X than the scattered jacks in a red 2 suiter.
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#18 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-April-24, 07:07

View Postshevek, on 2012-April-23, 19:44, said:

East admitted that partner had a record of forgetting this agreement but that it was a verbal agreement, not in the system notes.

I'm going to take a different route here.

On the one hand we have an "agreement" that is verbal and not in the system notes. On the other, a possible de facto "agreement" based on a hidden partnership understanding. Why should we assume that one of these "agreements" is more valid or enforceable than the other? Neither is in the system notes.

If south had based his 4 call on MI, I would have more sympathy. How did south even know he had any claim at all on which to base a director call? Did he know something about the E-W "agreements" and if so where did he get that information.
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#19 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-April-24, 07:10

View PostCyberyeti, on 2012-April-24, 06:16, said:

Why would 5 be a suggestion to play there ? The club opener said nothing about clubs, if this hand wanted to put clubs into the equation he could have done so last time, 5-P-5 whould be the normal continuation if 4x is removed.

5 would be a suggestion to play there because responder might have long clubs. Playing a natural system with limited openings, do you think
1 pass 4 4
dbl* pass 5
is a slam try?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#20 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-24, 07:13

View Postbillw55, on 2012-April-24, 07:07, said:

How did south even know he had any claim at all on which to base a director call? Did he know something about the E-W "agreements" and if so where did he get that information.

He got the information the same way East did ---from the speed of the double.
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