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Force Point system. Have any of you heard about it?

#1 User is offline   veistikke 

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Posted 2012-April-19, 08:10

I was kibbing some bridge yeasterday, and I came over this force point system? (SCOR-SCOR Convention, FP counting) Have u bbo players heard about it befor?

If anyone have, can you please explane some of it? Maybe tell me if it is a nice system?
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#2 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-April-19, 08:18

No
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2012-April-19, 08:26

I recall this has been discussed here before but I can't find it. However, this external link works: www.bullbridge.com/Home_Page.php

It promises you that you can become a bidding expert in three days. They probably sell snake oil and anti-aging creams, too. I suggest you don't waste time on it.
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#4 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-April-19, 08:34

lol, the arguments look as stupid as those of web pages that want to teach you how to win at online blackjack.
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#5 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-April-19, 09:21

I love the example where the players got to 6= and they claim the correct contract is in fact a grand slam... that goes off on a diamond ruff at trick one :)

OF course, without that they are correct, but still...

My theory here is that if it was really that good, a bunch of experts would already be playing it.

ahydra
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#6 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-19, 09:48

View Postahydra, on 2012-April-19, 09:21, said:

My theory here is that if it was really that good, a bunch of experts would already be playing it.

Hmmm. I think I will wait for a different alledged system to emerge; then I will challenge the concept that only experts could possibly be the first to adopt, or introduce, a good idea. The linked system has enough problems all by itself, without merely dismissing it because it isn't being played by experts.
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#7 User is offline   veistikke 

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Posted 2012-April-19, 10:24

So I shouldnt waste anytime on it then? It looks like a realy nice system thought or???
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#8 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-April-19, 12:20

View Postahydra, on 2012-April-19, 09:21, said:

I love the example where the players got to 6= and they claim the correct contract is in fact a grand slam... that goes off on a diamond ruff at trick one :)

No bidding system can protect against that, so I think it's an unfair criticism.

#9 User is offline   BumJr 

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Posted 2012-April-19, 17:30

View Postveistikke, on 2012-April-19, 08:10, said:

I was kibbing some bridge yeasterday, and I came over this force point system? (SCOR-SCOR Convention, FP counting) Have u bbo players heard about it befor?

If anyone have, can you please explane some of it? Maybe tell me if it is a nice system?


I have studied the system. The developer is from Bulgaria (and many of the people who play the system on BBO are from Bulgaria). Suffice it to say that English is not his first language. There are actually many good ideas in the system. Perhaps the biggest complaint would be that on many relay auctions, the declarer ends up describing his hand so that makes defense a lot easier.

I have been in contact with the developer and negotiated to help him write up his system in good English so that it will be comprehensible (it is very difficult to understand at the moment, unless you read Bulgarian! At this point, he seems only mildly interested in my proposal. If he decides to go ahead with the idea, then he will have a much better product and people will be able to evaluate it fairly. In my opinion, without a re-write of the English description, it is too hard understand his concepts.

As to the crux of the system, 1NT is the forcing response to all 1 bids and if responder is strong, it starts a series of relays where opener describes his distribution, strength (based on the proprietary FP counting algorithm) and specific high cards. The system was designed for teams/IMPs. He is working on a simplification that will be better for pairs/MP.
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-April-19, 19:46

I do not think translating a system description from Bulgarian to English or, more generally, from any one language to any other, will make that system "better". It will make it accessible to more people. B-)
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#11 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 10:17

View Postahydra, on 2012-April-19, 09:21, said:

My theory here is that if it was really that good, a bunch of experts would already be playing it.

Ah, but it's copyrighted you know! They need a license if they want to play it in official tournaments!!!
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
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#12 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 11:11

View Postbarmar, on 2012-April-19, 12:20, said:

No bidding system can protect against that, so I think it's an unfair criticism.


I agree! But if you're picking an example hand to market your system, surely that is not the one to pick! :)

ahydra
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#13 User is offline   Pavell 

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Posted 2016-May-28, 15:34

View Postveistikke, on 2012-April-19, 10:24, said:

So I shouldnt waste anytime on it then? It looks like a realy nice system thought or???


Because you are still suspicious, not about Fp (anyway you do not have any idea about it), but to the opinions of the BBO Forum Players, I personally will explain to you any difficult on firs sight Fp conceptions and Bidding Mechanisms ones you read the book. Then we will talk here again :)
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#14 User is offline   Pavell 

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Posted 2016-May-28, 16:08

View Postmgoetze, on 2012-April-20, 10:17, said:

Ah, but it's copyrighted you know! They need a license if they want to play it in official tournaments!!!


It is mandatory a material like this to be copyrighted and that was made by the U.S. Copyright Office in Washington DC. The first national Team who decide to go dipper with Fp will win the next Bermuda Bowl easy :)
No big deal, $44 for a personal license. I have to return at least the spending for the publishing ($7,000). Fp system was submitted for publication on May 27, 2016. The book 'Slam after Slam with Force Point' probably will hit the market in less than a month.
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#15 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-May-28, 16:08

i hope i can buy a book about this soon.
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#16 User is offline   Pavell 

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Posted 2016-May-28, 16:17

View Postwank, on 2016-May-28, 16:08, said:

i hope i can buy a book about this soon.


I will advertise the day when the book 'Slam after Slam with Force Point' hit the market and Amazon internet site in BBO, but anyway that will be in less than a month. Be the 1st, read it with your partner, then call me in BBO for explanations, if any. After that, create a Team and focus on the goal Bermuda Bowl :)
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#17 User is offline   Pavell 

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Posted 2016-May-28, 17:20

A short observation of Force Point SCOR-SCOR Convention



SCOR-SCOR Convention

Force Point ( Fp ® ) system uses only one Convention SCOR-SCOR for discovering the exact partner’s shape, Control Points (CP)along with the Queens, and their suits. The Basic suit is expected to be any 5+ card suit in which you opened or overcalled. When your Basic suit is already shown you may start answering by SCOR-SCOR showing your side suits, then your 2nd longest suit which will reveal your exact shape. In the cases when you have 2 more cards in length than previously expected (7 cards instead of 5 cards Basic suit) you must use NT bid before you show your 2nd longest suit.

Usually you will use the 1st part of SCOR - SCOR Convention when it is exactly 5 card suit, but when you have a 6 card Basic suit and want to show that your previously shown Basic suit has 1 more card in length than expected, you will use the 2nd part of the SCOR - SCOR Convention. The abbreviations for SCOR-SCOR Convention are:

S” stands for the SHAPE ('rounded, surrounding the Basic suit, every other suits') side suits which surround your Basic suit.
CO” stands for your COLOR (red or black) side suits always excluding the color of your Basic suit.
R” stands for the RANK (Majors or Minors) side suits always excluding the rank of your Basic suit.
NOTE: The abbreviations are equal for both part of the Convention, but if your partner thinks you have odd number (5, 7) card suit, using the 2nd part of it will show to him that you have even number (6, 8) card suit.
The side suits can be (by priority): 0 by 0, 1 by 1, 2 by 2, 3 by 3, 4 by 4 or 2 by 3, 2 by 4, 3 by 4. The important thing to remember is: between them never can be only 1 Singleton, except when you have 8 card Basic suit (1 by 4) or 9 card Basic suit (1 by 3)

The convention is universal, the 2nd part of the Convention uses the same meanings, but it shows that your Basic suit’s length has 1 more card in length than was previously expected. When your partner knows that you opened (overcalled) with a 5+ card suit and later you use the 2nd part of SCOR – SCOR Convention, your partner will discover that you actually have 6 cards in your Basic suit. The same when your partner knows that you opened (overcalled) with a 6+ card suit and later you use the 2nd part of SCOR – SCOR Convention, your partner will discover that you actually have 7 cards in your Basic suit.

In general, when you have odd number card suit (5, 7) you show your 5+ card Basic suit, then you show your side suits by 1st part of SCOR - SCOR, then if you have 5 card suit you will show directly your 2nd longest suit naturally, revealing your exact shape, BUT if you have a 7 card suit, you will bid NT to show that you have the next odd number of cards in your suit, thus postponing the answer for the 2nd longest suit, and on the next Relay you will show your 2nd longest suit naturally. In the latest version of SCOR – SCOR Convention, to save Bidding space, Fp uses NT bid to show 7 card suit + Void, then on a new Relay show the 2nd longest suit, and by using 7th and upper steps show directly the exact shapes of the 7 card suit + Singleton(s)

With 6 card suit you show your 5+ card Basic suit, then you show your side suits by 2nd part of scor-SCOR, thus informing your partner that you have 6 or 8 card suit, then you will show your 2nd longest suit naturally, revealing your exact shape, BUT if your side suits are RANK, you must immediately bid your 2nd longest suit by jump, despite that you will bid over the 6th step of SCOR-SCOR Convention! In this case, from 6th step and up, you will enter the Extended SCOR. You will read about it below, but for now just REMEMBER, that Extended SCOR is used only with 6 or 8 card Basic suit along with RANK side suits and the 6th step is always used to show 6 or 8 card Basic suit with RANK side suits and Void !!!

SCOR-SCOR is an innovative Convention allowing you to reveal your exact shape usually up to 3NT (if no opponents’ interferences). When you are The QUEST (Interrogator, asking your partner) the important thing is to pay attention where is your partner's 2nd longest suit:
- Is it one of the previously shown side suits or is it not ?
Remember that when the 2nd longest suit is one of the previously shown side suits, the 4th not shown till that time suit is ALWAYS a Singleton, but when the 2nd longest suit is not one of the previously shown side suits, your partner doesn’t have a Singleton, nor Void !
Usually it is a 4 card suit (if your Basic suit is 5 or 7 card suit), or it is a 3 card suit (if your Basic suit is 6 or 7 card suit).

The meaning of the Extended SCOR-SCOR Convention

When you have a Basic suit with 6 card length along with RANK side suits, your answer for the 2nd longest suit will enter the zone of the Extended SCOR. Remember, that happens ONLY with those 2 conditions (a 6 card Basic suit and RANK side suits). In such cases, you will show your 2nd longest suit immediately by natural JUMPING in the suit. By bidding your 2nd longest suit immediately on the 1st Relay, thus saving the need of using the 2nd Relay for that, you will save a very valuable bidding space. Just remember in any cases with a 6 card Basic suit when you have also RANK side suits to bid directly your 2nd longest suit by jumping naturally when asked for your side suits, because every step from 6th and above shows that your side suits are always RANK.

The Extended SCOR-SCOR starts with the 6th step answer and all of the next steps will show the same RANK side suits, so you simply MUST bid your 2nd longest suit naturally by JUMP despite which step you will use over the first 5 steps by s-co-r s-co-RRRRR…. The jump answers consists max 12 steps.

Whenever you have made a natural suit overcall, the rules are the same for using Extended SCOR if you have 6 card Basic suit along with RANK side suits.

NOTE: The 1 Opening will be difficult for you to start, so we will start with the easier explanations and by the end when you become accustomed with the basic system’s principles, we will explain the 1 Opening. You can find the bids using by Fp by running the separate Sysnotes.exe program upon downloading and installing it. You can use the program to play bridge by Fp Rules when playing on Internet even if you know nothing about Fp system. See the instructions by the end of the book.

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#18 User is offline   Pavell 

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Posted 2016-May-28, 17:34

No matter how experienced are you, just you have to clear your mind of those inaccurate HCP (except when you expect to play NT contract) and spend 3 months to practice Fp. Your status from Beginner to Expert won't count, except for the Playing part of bridge game, I can not help you there, and this is your own responsibility! If you are an Expert about the Playing, in 3 months you will be called Exceptional Slam Expert, the other will be called Exceptional Slam Bidders only. Fp counts directly in Contract Tricks. Just use the B#s (the contract tricks) instead of HCP (exception for NT contracts only) :)
Fp system was submitted for publication on May 27 2016. The book 'Slam after Slam with Force Point' probably will hit the market in less than a month.
I expect, the additional explanations in BBO to become daily routine for all who are interested. GOD help me, but I'll do what I have promised!
By using the separate computer program Sysnotes (Fp system Notes) will be much easier for all of you to learn and start playing Fp in 1 week on the Internet, but all of you who can afford to spend $44 for the licence must attend frequently in BBO for the planed explanation.



We will start with the easiest Openings to make your learning of Fp more comfortable. You must understand that you do not need to remember the Bidding sequences. Instead you have to remember the Bidding Mechanism that goes with any Opening. That is much easier than memorizing tens of sequences. The main things you must memorize are the ranges of the Opening bids (elementary) and SCOR-SCOR (including Extended SCOR) Convention. It is new and some players find it difficult on 1st sight, but the Convention will show to you the exact partner’s distribution of any shapes which is the important thing. Along with the CPA you will be able to project the partner’s cards through the back of them! That’s like a Double Dummy Bidding with your partner. You will like it, so learn SCOR-SCOR (15 to 30 hours, depends on you imagination capabilities).
The Openings from 1 to 4NT are 20, but that doesn’t mean you will need to remember 20 Bidding Mechanisms.
So, you will need to learn 10 Bidding Mechanisms corresponding to the different Opening bids, 1 Convention (SCOR-SCOR) and 3 Askings (for the exact partner’s B#, CPA for the partner’s Control and for the colors of the partner’s TOP Honors). Any one can do that for approximately 90 - 120 hours, respectively for 30 days (3 - 4 hours a day) depending on your free time and intentions.

1. 1 → B(2.5)+ (12+ HCP), any distribution. The Bidding Mechanisms in 1st/ 2nd sit is a bit difficult, but it include all possible suits’ and not-trump’s distributions. It will be easy for you if you start learning the system from SCOR-SCOR then 1, 1, 1, 1NT, 2NT Openings and then continue with 1 Opening in any sit (20 to 25 hours to learn it)
2. 1 → B1+ (8+ HCP), any distribution. The Bidding Mechanisms in 3rd / 4th sit is the most effective and not difficult (10 - 15 hours to learn it)
3. 1, 1, 1 → B(2.5 - 4.5) for Minors, B(2.0 - 4.0) for Majors, 5+ card suit. The Bidding Mechanisms are equal and not difficult when you become accustomed with SCOR-SCOR (5 to 10 hours to learn it)
4. 1NT, 2NT → B(2.5- 4.0) & 14-18 HCP, (with 19 HCP open 1), respectivelly B5+, balance or 22+ HCP, balance. The Bidding Mechanisms after 1NT and 2NT Openings are equal and easy when you learn the clever tricks for showing your exact shape and strength (up to 3NT after 1NT Opening), 10 to 15 hours to learn it
5. 2 → B(2.5)+, no Vulnerable, B3+, Vulnerable. The Bidding Mechanisms after 2 is the easier (5 hours to learn it)
6. 2, 2, 2 → B(2.5 - 4.5) for Minor bi-color, B(2.0 - 4.0) for Major bi-colors. The Bidding Mechanisms after these Openings are equal and the easiest (5 hours to learn it)
7. 3, 3, 3, 3 → B3+ for any 6+/5+ bi-color. The Bidding Mechanisms after these Openings are equal and easy (5 to 10 hours to learn it)
8. 3NT, 4NT → B(2.5 - 3), 8 or 8 with 3 TOP Honors respectively B5+, any 9+ cards, 3 TOP Honors, Direct CP askings. The Bidding Mechanisms after 3NT and 4NT Openings are equal and easy but statistically they almost never will happen, just remember that the answers start from 8 CP or less (1 to 2 hours to learn it)
9. 4, 4 → B4+, AKQJxxx(x). No difference after these Openings, but they are not too easy. Statistically they almost never will happen, just remember that the answers start from 16 Control Points (CP), 10 hours to learn it
10. 4, 4 → B(3.5 - 4.5), 8 card suit. No difference after these Openings and they are elementary, you seldom will use SCOR (5 hours to learn it)
11. SCOR-SCOR Convention including its Extended SCOR part. The learning depends of your imagination capability and is rated from fair to difficult (15 to 30 hours to learn it
12. Asking for the exact B# → elementary (1 hour to learn it)
13. Control Points Asking (CPA) → revolutionary, but a simple arithmetic for a 7 grader (1 year to discover it, but no more than 5 hours to learn it)
14. The asking for the suits of your TOP Honors is elementary and uses 3 steps by SCOR for showing ‘2 of a kind’ + one 4th step showing 1 TOP Honor (instead of 2) + 2 or more Jacks in a balanced hand or 3-4 Jacks in an unbalanced hand (1 hour to learn it)!

You will need around 100 hours (no more than 160 hours if you are a slow learner), approximately 60 or maybe only 30 days (respectively 2 to 4 hours a day) to learn Fp good enough theoretically, and you will need 60 days to employ it practically. In 3 to 4 months you will be ready for the Bermuda Bowl, no kidding !

NOTE: If SCOR-SCOR is difficult for you (needs 20 – 30 hours to learn it), discard discovering the partner’s exact distribution (shape), use your own bidding and relay only on Fp Counting to find the game’s Play Level. Statistically, you still will have better results than using the HCP (there are garbage, except for NT contracts)
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#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-May-30, 06:37

View PostPavell, on 2016-May-28, 17:34, said:

Statistically, you still will have better results than using the HCP (there are garbage, except for NT contracts)

Could you provide your evidence for this please. Good comparisons for suit contracts would be with zar points and the 4.5-3-1.5-1 + 5-3-1 method. On the surface it looks like your B is based on QTs, which is known to be less accurate than the best point-based systems, so I am interested in seeing your analysis (although you might have to define your B for it to be meaningful). Thank you in advance.
(-: Zel :-)
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#20 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2016-May-30, 10:39

View PostFluffy, on 2012-April-19, 08:34, said:

lol, the arguments look as stupid as those of web pages that want to teach you how to win at online blackjack.

"Strange game. The only way to win is not to play." -- Joshua, aka the WOPR, "War Games".
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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