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2M as canapé with clubs? Playable?

#1 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 01:43

For some time I've been interested in playing some kind of forcing club system. However, I am not so fond of the nebulous 1D or the 2C as 5c and 4M or 6+ openings. Some Swedish pairs play 2m as 6+ or 5-4 minors and 1D as nebulous with 11-13 balanced or 4M and 5+m, which seems to fit my taste better.

Recently I've read more about the 2-way club, showing 11-13 balanced or 17+ any. This makes the 1D opening (semi)natural (hooray), but the 2C opening is still the same. Therefore I'm thinking about adding 2M as showing exactly 4 cards in the major and 5 clubs, 11-16 hcp. Has anyone tried this kind of opening, do you think it would be playable? In my natural system I currently play 2M as preemptive with 4 cards and a 5+ minor, which works nice.

The opening scheme would be:

1C - 11-13 hcp (semi)balanced (no five card major) or 17+ hcp any
1D - 4+ diamonds, 11-16 hcp. May be 4 diamonds and 5 clubs
1H - 5+ hearts or exactly 4-4-1-4 (not suitable for 1C opening), 11-16 hcp
1S - 5+ spades, 11-16 hcp
1N - 14-16 hcp
2C - 6+ clubs, 11-16 hcp
2D - Weak in either major (Meckwell style multi)
2M - Exactly 4 cards in the major and 5 clubs, 11-16 hcp
2N - 21-23 hcp balanced

(04)45 hands would be opened 1D I guess. Over 2M I guess 2NT could be used either as some type of distributional relay, or as some kind of range check.
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#2 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 05:27

Hm, the idea sounds interesting. I'm finding it all-too-easy to imagine hands with 5 hearts which want to be in game opposite a decent 4315 but have no 3-level safety, however. 11-16 is really very wide, you will have trouble finding out both the distribution and the strength below 3NT.

Maybe you could use the 2M openings with 11-14 and smuggle the 15-16 hands of this shape into 1, in a Polish kind of way?
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#3 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 06:41

IMO, you will have a lot more luck if your canape openings are at the one-level and non-canape at the two-level. Might want to consider the full switch.
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#4 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 06:58

Thanks for your wise words! I've bought your ebook version of MICS Ken, and I can see the merits in it. However, from what I've heard the precise 1M openings are the main reason why players enjoy playing big club systems. I also thought of a opening scheme similar to the one I've described in the two way pass thread, which uses transfer openings which MAY be canapé. These could be used in a two way club system too:

1C - 11-13 bal or 17+
1D - 4+ hearts, may have longer minor, unbalanced or 5332
1H - 4+ spades, may have longer minor, unbalanced or 5332
1S - 5-4 or 5-5 in minors, no 4 card major
1N - 14-16
2m - 6+ minor, no 4 card major

About the wide range of the canapé openings; I've thought about them too, and especially when responder holds game try values and 5+ in the other major. Ofcourse some (42)25 hands could be opened with 1C or 1NT. You could also just pass some weaker hands with these patterns and hope for the best, so 2M would be like 13-16. Or you could just use the traditional precision 2C opening, allowing 5C and 4M. If the alternative is worse, then there's no point :)
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#5 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 07:53

View Postkenrexford, on 2012-April-16, 06:41, said:

IMO, you will have a lot more luck if your canape openings are at the one-level and non-canape at the two-level. Might want to consider the full switch.


Ken

I like this idea of yours. What would your full 2-level bidding structure look like and how would your 2-level bidding continue?
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#6 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 08:09

View Post32519, on 2012-April-16, 07:53, said:

Ken

I like this idea of yours. What would your full 2-level bidding structure look like and how would your 2-level bidding continue?



Short form:

2 as any three suits. 2 asks for shape and strength (2 min with hearts, 2 min 4144, 2NT --> 3 = one-under stiff and maximum)

2 = minors (might be 13-16 if 2NT is weak minors 9-12 or so); 2 asks strengtrh shape (2 min with 3, 3 min with 3, 2NT min with no major, 3M max frag, 3 max no frag, 3NT ???)

2/2 = 5-piece major (rare 6) with 4+ clubs; 2NT asking bid

(2NT maybe minors weaker)

A complete write-up is available as an ebook through MPP at http://ebooksbridge....products_id=378.

A paperback version is available from many sources, including Amazon at http://www.amazon.co...34585305&sr=1-1.
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#7 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 08:20

View PostKungsgeten, on 2012-April-16, 06:58, said:

Thanks for your wise words! I've bought your ebook version of MICS Ken, and I can see the merits in it. However, from what I've heard the precise 1M openings are the main reason why players enjoy playing big club systems. I also thought of a opening scheme similar to the one I've described in the two way pass thread, which uses transfer openings which MAY be canapé. These could be used in a two way club system too:

1C - 11-13 bal or 17+
1D - 4+ hearts, may have longer minor, unbalanced or 5332
1H - 4+ spades, may have longer minor, unbalanced or 5332
1S - 5-4 or 5-5 in minors, no 4 card major
1N - 14-16
2m - 6+ minor, no 4 card major

About the wide range of the canapé openings; I've thought about them too, and especially when responder holds game try values and 5+ in the other major. Ofcourse some (42)25 hands could be opened with 1C or 1NT. You could also just pass some weaker hands with these patterns and hope for the best, so 2M would be like 13-16. Or you could just use the traditional precision 2C opening, allowing 5C and 4M. If the alternative is worse, then there's no point :)


I have played many strong club structures, including Precision, Precision with the MICS minor core, Canape MICS style, Canape Leghorn Diamond style, and Canape Neapolitan style. My personal experience, obviously, was that MICS works best in the long run. The 2 opening (used both in classical Precision and Neapolitan) is just too ugly for words, and the "large range" for the major openings has not seemed like a problem. Granted, some of the ultra-light balanced minimum 1M openings that I use in MICS expand the range from a balanced 11-count to a wildly unbalanced hand, but you gain some mitigation by opening strong playing hands a slightly weaker 1 (weaker as to HCP strength) and from the fact that the pattern development is so strong.

I will admit, however, to contemplating the canape 2M openings, myself. The risk seems to be in forcing the auction into the sky without comfort of being able to pass on misfits a tad better (the world plays 2M on many of these misfits anyway when 2M shows 5, but not when 4). It might work OK, but I would still think that the MICS core for minors would work better that the Precision core, even with the mitigation of the 2M opening. You just end up devoting too much attention (three opening bids) to the hand types Precision and Neapolitan handle with one call.

If anything, you might be thinking this through backwards. It might, for instance, make more sense to have 2 promise clubs and spades, 2 canape with clubs and hearts, and then 1 potentially long clubs. If you added in 2 and clubs and diamonds, that purifies better, IMO.
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#8 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 09:25

I think opening 2M with 4M/5m is a loser. You are too high. I doubt your other openings will be advantaged enough to compensate.
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#9 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 09:28

I am trying to explore Ken’s idea further. I don’t want to lose the opportunity for bidding a weak 2/2 showing a 6-card suit and 5-10 HCP. Neither do I want the strong hand on the table.

This is a shot at combining Kungsgeten + Ken’s ideas:
2 = Weak 6-card suit 5-10 HCP
2 = Weak 6-card suit 5-10 HCP
2 = Natural 5+ card suit 11-15 HCP
2 = Natural 5+ card suit 11-15 HCP
2NT = Minors 13-15 HCP
The three suited hands fall back into the 1 bid.

The 1 and 1 bids are Canape showing 4-cards in the suit and a 5-card suit.
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#10 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 09:36

View Post32519, on 2012-April-16, 09:28, said:

I am trying to explore Ken’s idea further. I don’t want to lose the opportunity for bidding a weak 2/2 showing a 6-card suit and 5-10 HCP. Neither do I want the strong hand on the table.

This is a shot at combining Kungsgeten + Ken’s ideas:
2 = Weak 6-card suit 5-10 HCP
2 = Weak 6-card suit 5-10 HCP
2 = Natural 5+ card suit 11-15 HCP
2 = Natural 5+ card suit 11-15 HCP
2NT = Minors 13-15 HCP
The three suited hands fall back into the 1 bid.

The 1 and 1 bids are Canape showing 4-cards in the suit and a 5-card suit.


So you lose the preemptive effect of your weak two and you sacrifice 2C and 2D openings. What do you do with opening club hands? Your both minor hands? 1D-1M, 2C shows just clubs now or both minors?
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#11 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 10:03

Straube: You may be right, and this is ofcourse the reason why I'm posting here. The only other opening in this case is the 2 opening, which now shows 6+ instead of a possible 5 and 4/. Since the latter alternative is pretty common I guess it works but there's many people complaining about this precision/polish 2 opening. The 2 opening showing a 6+ suit seems to be favored by many.

I think I'll try out the 2/ canapé opening idea. However the bid should be specific, so I think I'll use these "rules":

  • 12-16 hcp, exactly 4 cards in major, exactly 5 clubs
  • If the hand is (24)25 it should be treated as balanced unless the honors are very centered to the long suits (many treat these hands as balanced anyway)
  • Opener can not have 4 cards in the other major, so 4405-hands are excluded (opened 1)


The 2M-2NT response would be a forcing relay (at least invitational):
3 - any minimum, 12 to 14 bad
3 - max, 2-2 in other suits
3 - max, 3 diamonds
3 - max, 3 cards in the non-opened major

2M-2NT; 3-3 - game forcing relay:
3 - 2-2 in other suits
3 - 3 diamonds
3NT - 3 cards in the non-opened major

I guess another way could be to systematically treat all (24)25 hands as balanced and use a precision 2 for the other kinds, but I'm not sure about how sound this would be.
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#12 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 10:18

If I understand correctly, you're thinking about opening 2M with 4M/5C and opening 2C with 4M/6C which seems exactly backwards to me. I'd recommend either awm's openings or ours.

awm's

1D-various
2C-6 clubs, possible 4M
2D-6 diamonds, possible 4M
2M-weak two
2N-5m/5m

ours

1D-various including 4M/6D
2C-6 clubs, possible 4S or 4D
2D-6 diamonds, possible 4C
2M-weak two
2N-4H/6C
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#13 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 15:07

If I were to play a club system where 1C always is strong, I would probably go with the structure played by Swedish players Nyström - Bertheau:

1 - 16+
1 - 11-13 bal OR 10-15, exactly 4 card in either major and 5+ in either minor OR 10-15, any marmic
1/ - 5+ suit, 10-15
1NT - 14-16
2/ - 10-15, unbalanced without a 4 card major (at least 5-4 in minors or 6+)
Weak twos
2NT - I think it is showing minors...

But now I'm discussing the two way club, which includes the 11-13 bal range in 1. One of the benefits of this is that 1 can be pretty natural, but ofcourse I could play the structure above and just exclude the 11-13 bal from the 1 opening, but 1 would probably be vulnerable when the opponents enter the bidding.
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#14 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 15:20

I used to play something like that, but the 1D always promised a major and the 1N was an unmanageable 12-15 (no major). I think your way is better. Why do you like the Swedish club?
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#15 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 16:40

Well, one aspect of it is to make the 1D opening actually showing diamonds, which I think is good in competition. I usually play a variation of "Swedish standard" (4 card majors, 15-17NT), as does most players in my club. Another popular natural system in Sweden is 5542 (short club), I almost think this is more common than 5533. To open "real suits" is to me an advantage in contested auctions, and it seems most auctions are contested :)

The reason why I like the idea of Swedish club is that the 11-13 balanced (without a 5 card major) disappears from another bid, but you can still play 5 card majors. It seems that the balanced hands not covered by 1NT is a bit of a problem in 16+ club systems. Also the opponents can not bid as destructive against this opening, since it may be their hand. Ofcourse, if they do bid you're probably worse of than if 1C was always strong.

A third reason is that the system can be used pretty quickly in a new partnership. Ofcourse you can have advanced methods, but the bidding after most opening bids (except 1C) can be very natural.

My main arguments against playing strong club ala Precision is the treatment of the minors; I haven't really played it much myself but I do not like the idea of 1D, 2C or three suited 2D (in Sweden the 2D is often multi, and 1D can be down to 1 or maybe even 0).
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#16 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-16, 21:10

Thanks for explaining. Our strong club auctions are tight enough that I would worry about adding the more frequent 12-14 balanced, but you've made a good list of the advantages. I know Polish and Swedish club have a wide following. Seems to be growing actually.
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#17 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2012-April-22, 07:49

View PostKungsgeten, on 2012-April-16, 01:43, said:

2M - Exactly 4 cards in the major and 5 clubs, 11-16 hcp


I've played those as preemtive 5-10 for like 4 years and it certainly was playable. Your variant is stronger, so it should be even safer.
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#18 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2012-April-22, 18:35

View Postwhereagles, on 2012-April-22, 07:49, said:

I've played those as preemtive 5-10 for like 4 years and it certainly was playable. Your variant is stronger, so it should be even safer.


Yeah, I'm playing them as preemptive too (but with the minor unknown), so I guess it could work.
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#19 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-April-22, 21:33

View Postwhereagles, on 2012-April-22, 07:49, said:

I've played those as preemtive 5-10 for like 4 years and it certainly was playable. Your variant is stronger, so it should be even safer.



Totally off-topic, what was your 2NT response here? I'm playing 2S as 4+ spades and a minor, but I would like a way to find out if P has 4 spades or 5. Or did you require exactly 4 spades?
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#20 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2012-April-24, 16:31

View PostCthulhu D, on 2012-April-22, 21:33, said:

Totally off-topic, what was your 2NT response here? I'm playing 2S as 4+ spades and a minor, but I would like a way to find out if P has 4 spades or 5. Or did you require exactly 4 spades?


Me and my partner used to play that it could be 5-5 in the major and a minor. The problem here is (which you point out) that a 5-3 fit (or more often a playable 5-2 fit) is easily missed. We now play that 2M is preemptive with exactly 4 cards in the major and a longer minor. After this agreement, there has been one occasion where we opened 2M on 5-5 because the major did not include any honors.

We play 2M-2 as NF, opener is expected to pass. 2M-2NT is forcing; 2m shows minimum with the minor, 2 is maximum with 5 clubs, 2 is maximum with 5 diamonds, 3NT is max with 5440 (void in other major), 4m is max with 6+ card minor.
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