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Jacoby 2NT raise Completely ignored the side four card suit?

#1 User is offline   stansllee 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 22:37

BBO system Notes: After a Jacoby 2NT raise, 3 level bids show shortness, 4 level bids show good 5 card suits.



1 - 2NT
4 - ??

West 4 says minimum without shortness, What East can do now?
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#2 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 22:53

Very tough to reach 6C here. In your methods I would stop in 4H since it is too risky to chance the 5 level.

By the way, being forced to bid 4H on any min semi-balanced hand is not best. The jump to game should show a hand with very poor controls.
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#3 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 05:37

In theory, this slam could be reached in four bids.

1-2(clubs or fit)

4(4-card club fit with two of top three honors, three of top four hearts, no honor or shortness control in a red suit)-6



Using 2 as waiting by Opener, you get:


1-2(clubs or fit)

3NT(4-card club fit with two of top three honors, three of top four hearts, no honor or shortness control in a red suit)-6



Using nothing all that special like that:

1-2(clubs or fit)

3-3

4(two of top three clubs, courtesy)-4(LTTC)

5(two without the Queen -- immediate answers)-6


The point is that Jacoby 2NT sucks unless very limited in use, IMO.
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#4 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 05:37

double post. Oops
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#5 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 06:21

28 balanced-balanced are fine playing at just game, winning 6 is more like an anecdote
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#6 User is offline   stansllee 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 06:54

View Postkenrexford, on 2012-April-09, 05:37, said:

In theory, this slam could be reached in four bids.

1-2(clubs or fit)

4(4-card club fit with two of top three honors, three of top four hearts, no honor or shortness control in a red suit)-6



Using 2 as waiting by Opener, you get:


1-2(clubs or fit)

3NT(4-card club fit with two of top three honors, three of top four hearts, no honor or shortness control in a red suit)-6



Using nothing all that special like that:

1-2(clubs or fit)

3-3

4(two of top three clubs, courtesy)-4(LTTC)

5(two without the Queen -- immediate answers)-6


The point is that Jacoby 2NT sucks unless very limited in use, IMO.


A lot of bidding methods can explore this hand perfectly, for example, my relay system, but I must admit that yours is simple and clear!
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#7 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 07:01

Most people dont play "original" Jacoby anymore, you can do a lot better with a variety of different structures.

Having said that, imo, its impossible to reach 6C here if you start with jacoby. No one I know has any way to play in a different suit after you have discovered such a good heart fit.

Some people have system where you start of with 2C either relay, or just the way you bid GF with support. The polish particularly seem to start all GF hands with 3 or four card support with a 2c GF. It certainly has advantages on hands like this, but I dont think they are huge. "Good Jacoby" helps a lot on lots of common hand types that are otherwise difficult for opener to express.

Just chalk this one up as a system loss and only revisit if you become a WC expert. :)
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#8 User is offline   stansllee 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 07:12

View PostFluffy, on 2012-April-09, 06:21, said:

28 balanced-balanced are fine playing at just game, winning 6 is more like an anecdote


my partner must be very pleased to see your comment, he said to have nine card fit, and also looking for a 4-4, is possessed by the devil!
Never growl at your partner. You never know what fine player is watching and would have asked you to play.
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#9 User is offline   stansllee 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 07:35

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-April-09, 07:01, said:

Most people dont play "original" Jacoby anymore, you can do a lot better with a variety of different structures.

Having said that, imo, its impossible to reach 6C here if you start with jacoby. No one I know has any way to play in a different suit after you have discovered such a good heart fit.

Some people have system where you start of with 2C either relay, or just the way you bid GF with support. The polish particularly seem to start all GF hands with 3 or four card support with a 2c GF. It certainly has advantages on hands like this, but I dont think they are huge. "Good Jacoby" helps a lot on lots of common hand types that are otherwise difficult for opener to express.

Just chalk this one up as a system loss and only revisit if you become a WC expert. :)


I did some modification, but my partner refused to change, he said to have nine card fit, and also looking for a 4-4, is possessed by the devil!
Just for fun, please see the following:

1 - 2NT
??
3 = undisclosed 4-card minor suit
3 = 1-suiter with undisclosed shortness
3 = 1-suiter, No shortness, extra values
3 = 4-cards
4X = 5-card suit

1 - 2NT
3 - 3 (Relay)
3= 4-cards clubs

Responder can relay with 3 to find out shortness or equal-residue!
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#10 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 13:15

These 68% slam are not rare but not that frequent, since they are never bid at the other tables people dont really care about them. I strongly agree with others that 2Nt jacoby isnt a good convention especially in the original form.
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#11 User is offline   Avoidance 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 14:21

Purely as an anecdote & with a natural 3C rebid & 4H denying a diamond control.

1-2NT
3-4
4-4
6
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#12 User is online   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 16:36

View Poststansllee, on 2012-April-08, 22:37, said:




The hand is interesting because even the modified Jacobys that I'm aware of don't cater to finding a 4-4(or 5) outside fit ( with the 4 in Opener's hand ). The "modified" show "minimum or extras" w/ or w/o shortness or a 2nd 5 card outside suit with Opener.

I suppose Responder with a big hand such as this one could make a 2/1 GF in and will remain in control to place the final contract:

1H - 2C! ( 2/1 GF , 4+ cards )
3C ( 4 or 5 cards ) - 3H ( double-fit, only promises 3 cards )
4H ( no Ctrl ) - 4S! ( 6 Ace-RKC , including Q but not Q; Q in K-ask)
5H ( 2 + Q ) - 5S ( K-ask )
6C ( Q ; denies K [ 5NT reply] ) - pass
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#13 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 17:38

View Poststansllee, on 2012-April-08, 22:37, said:

BBO system Notes: After a Jacoby 2NT raise, 3 level bids show shortness, 4 level bids show good 5 card suits.



1 - 2NT
4 - ??

West 4 says minimum without shortness, What East can do now?



I just checked on bbo and I did not see where it defines jacoby 2nt as just minimum.....can you supply a link.

I am used to playing 4h as dead minimum which this hand is not.

It is really tough to back into a second suit at slam level once you find a major....really tough.....

this is a constant problem on bbo forums....and in real life.


edit I found it now and you are correct.

In any case tough bid yes...
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#14 User is offline   Gerardo 

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Posted 2012-April-10, 09:13

View Poststansllee, on 2012-April-09, 07:12, said:

my partner must be very pleased to see your comment, he said to have nine card fit, and also looking for a 4-4, is possessed by the devil!


Sometimes (like this one) worths to play in the 4-4 instead of the 5-4 fit, the 5th card providing a discard.

#15 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-April-10, 15:11

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-April-09, 07:01, said:

Most people dont play "original" Jacoby anymore, you can do a lot better with a variety of different structures.Having said that, imo, its impossible to reach 6C here if you start with jacoby. No one I know has any way to play in a different suit after you have discovered such a good heart fit.



View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-April-09, 16:36, said:

The hand is interesting because even the modified Jacobys that I'm aware of don't cater to finding a 4-4(or 5) outside fit ( with the 4 in Opener's hand ).


Playing Jallerton's forcing raise methods

1H - 2S*
2NT - 3C
3H - 3S
3NT - 4C
4H- 4S
5D - 6C?

*16+forcing raise
2NT = no shortage, 3C asks
3H = 2524, 3S asks
3NT = minimum HCP, 4C asks
4H = 1 or 4 keycards, 4S asks
5D = queen of hearts, king of clubs, not the king of spades

Responder has already taken the view to move past 4H, which isn't entirely obvious. And you've ended up in a slam which might need clubs 3-2 with the queen onside. What you do know is that 6C clubs is likely to be as good a contract as 5H, but you also know you might have been better in game.

It would be easier if you had a spare couple of queens somewhere (if opener had more HCP he can save a relay by going straight to the keycard response)

In summary, our methods after a forcing raise let us play in a different strain, so they do exist, but this hand is super difficult anyway because it's such a perfect fit with nothing wasted.
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#16 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-April-10, 16:56

FWIW, you don't need 3-2 clubs on a non-diamond lead, then you will make on 4-1 clubs as well (barring a heart ruff or awful spade break). Anyway, hard hand. It might be easier (but still hard) if the other hand were dealer. At least you would find the club fit easily.
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#17 User is offline   stansllee 

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Posted 2012-April-10, 18:12

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2012-April-10, 15:11, said:

Playing Jallerton's forcing raise methods

1H - 2S*
2NT - 3C
3H - 3S
3NT - 4C
4H- 4S
5D - 6C?

*16+forcing raise
2NT = no shortage, 3C asks
3H = 2524, 3S asks
3NT = minimum HCP, 4C asks
4H = 1 or 4 keycards, 4S asks
5D = queen of hearts, king of clubs, not the king of spades

Responder has already taken the view to move past 4H, which isn't entirely obvious. And you've ended up in a slam which might need clubs 3-2 with the queen onside. What you do know is that 6C clubs is likely to be as good a contract as 5H, but you also know you might have been better in game.

It would be easier if you had a spare couple of queens somewhere (if opener had more HCP he can save a relay by going straight to the keycard response)

In summary, our methods after a forcing raise let us play in a different strain, so they do exist, but this hand is super difficult anyway because it's such a perfect fit with nothing wasted.


1 - 2NT
3 - 3 = Ask
3 - 4 = RKC-+
4NT- 5 = Keep going
5 - 6 = To play

3 = undisclosed 4-card minor suit
3 = 4-clubs (3= 4-diamonds)
Over 3:

3 is a relay for residue,
3NT = RKC-longer suit (), Here we have 9-card heart fit, 3NT can't be final contract!
4 = RKC-+, the final contract will be club!
4 = End-Signal, Opener is obliged to bid 4, and to pass any following bid
4NT = 2+Q
5 = Q but not K

PS: Over 5, if opener says 5NT (Q,K but not K), responder can happily bid 7
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#18 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2012-April-11, 02:45

Pass.

Unless playing specific agreements, you wont be able to find a 8 card
minor suit fit, after locating a 9 card major suit fit.

What you could agree on is, that a 4C response showes a 5422 shape,
i.e. if you have a singleton, you will always bid the singleton.
This would allow you to locate the 4-4 fit, but you would loose the
information, that may enables you to count tricks.

We play, that 4C showes 5422, but I am not sure, how common this is.

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Marlowe
With kind regards
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#19 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-April-11, 10:23

I was surprised to see posters claiming that one cannot play in a side fit after J2N.

That is certainly true about crude forms of J2N, but it isn't difficult to find methods that work better.

The one I play is easy enough:

Over 2N, opener's rebids include a rebid of 3 announcing a side 4 card suit somewhere....by agreement, this is a suit that contains some strength......we wouldn't do it with Jxxx, for example....now responder, if interested, relays via 3 and we have simple step responses: 1st step = clubs and so on.

Then we play 6 card keycard should responder be in a position to take control...otherwise we set trump (if we have a fit for the second suit) or we bid another suit, which is a cue in support of the major.

This works well.

On the OP hand, we would have found clubs via opener's 3 response to the 3 relay, and now responder could keycard if he chose and then play 6, having discovered 2 keys with both Queens, and if using kickback (4), would get a 5 response and could now bid 5N to see if partner has a side K, which would lead to a good grand...and, since opener doesn't, can reach 6: the auction:

1 2N
3 3
3 4
5 5N
6

Seems straightforward to me.
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#20 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-April-11, 10:45

like mikeh I also reach 6 on my own system where 1-1NT is GF relay, but this has nothing to do with standard methods :)

But other than that I think mikeh is right that Jacoby has a lot of room for improvement.
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