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1N dbl

#21 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 17:56

Two, of several things upon which we agree. But, our snipes at each other from time to time are probably more entertaining :rolleyes:
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#22 User is offline   Dark Widow 

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Posted 2012-April-13, 02:30

View Poststraube, on 2012-April-07, 15:59, said:

Partner and I have been discussing how to cope with 1N dbl when 1N is 14-16 and dbl is penalty. We've switched recently from a more traditional approach to something new. Which is better and why?

More Traditional

P-nothing to say, invites partner to bid a 5-cd suit or redouble if advancer passes
rdbl-business
suit-5-cd suit

New Approach

P-nothing to say, invites partner to bid a 5-cd suit or redouble if advancer passes
rdbl-asks opener to bid 2C, shows a 5-cd minor or both majors
2C-clubs and a higher (4/4 usually)
2D-diamonds and a higher (4/4 usually)
2M-5-cd suit

I'm still uneasy about

1) not having the redouble alert partner that he can double advancer's runout
2) responder bidding out with a 4/4 ahead of opener. Opener might have a 5-cd suit that would manage opposite a doubleton.

Partner argues that 2-suited hands are very common and that it makes more sense catering to this than trying to catch the opponents.

What do other people think?

Perhaps you can cater to problem #1 by inverting pass and redouble. Then pass alerts Opener that they can double any advance or they redouble if 3rd seat passes. As others have said the disadvantage is not being able to play 1NTX as well as giving 3rd seat 2 ways of running. Most pairs include other hand types into this forcing pass too but there is no need to do so when you want a call available that unequivocally shows strength.

Bidding 4-4s with a very weak hand is not a problem since you are very likely to find some kind of fit opposite unless you open alot of offshape 1NTs. Opener can still show a 5+ card suit by bidding something other than the pass or correct response too. Remember though that Opener has no guarantee of finding even a doubleton opposite. One last thing - if you do play a scheme like this then you need to think a little bit about how you want to deal with weak 4333 hands. The main options are to treat the hand as 1-suited, to upgrade a 3 card suit to 4, or to use one or more artificial redoubles. The last of these is arguably the best option but the second is probably more common.
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#23 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-April-13, 07:48

FWIW, you might like using within one or another structure for escapes a "one or both" approach to the minors. With this approach, pass is forcing and at least initially implies one or both minors. Might attach other meanings if you want, but Opener assumes one or both minors.

If he prefers clubs he bids 2C. You pass that with juust clubs or both, bid 2D with just diamonds. If Opener prefers diamonds he redoubles, and you bid accordingly. This way you do not bypass clubs to show diamond preference.

You could also make 2C one or both majors and even redouble as one or both red suits if you wanted, along the same lines, as another idea.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#24 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 04:24

We ignore conventional DBLs

1NT-(DBL pen)-?
Pass: Opener will mostly RDBL, but not always (That is making it more difficult for LHO with a weak distributional hand. He is not sure that 1NTX will not be passed)
RDBL: C or 5cH&4cS or D&H
2C: D or 5cS&4cH
2D: H
2H: S
2S: C (invitational)
2NT: D (invitational)
3C: distributional minors & weak
3D: distributional or GF majors
3H/3S: preemptive

1NT-(DBL)-Pass-(Pass)
RDBL-(Pass)-?
Pass: 9+
2C: C+other
2D: D+S
2H: H+S, no preference

1NT-(Pass)-Pass-(DBL)
Pass-(Pass)-?
RDBL: 5c minor
2C: C+ other
2D: D + M
2H: majors

What if opponents run after a forcing pass situation?
- If they run and responder showed strength, DBL is penalty
- If they run and responder didn’t showed strength, DBL is negative.
- If responder bids at the 3-level this remains RUBENSOHL if he has a non-limited hand.
If he has a limited hand, he bids naturally (2NT for both minors)
(i.e. 1NT – (PASS) – PASS – (DBL))
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#25 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 09:28

I'm really starting to question the idea of showing 2-suiters. It seems like there's unanimity that neither partner should try to escape with a 4432 pattern and that responder should treat a 5/4 as a single-suited hand. That means that the only 2-suited hand responder would want to show is a 5/5...and they're not that frequent.

How about....

P-content to play 1N X (something like 0-7)
.....P-hope we make this
.....rdbl-opener wants to run to his 5-cd suit but is seeking permission
..........2C-responder asks for opener's 5-cd suit
..........P-responder wants to play 1N doubled
redouble-business
suit-to play
2N+ Rubensohl-invitational+ hand
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#26 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 09:45

View Poststraube, on 2012-April-14, 09:28, said:

I'm really starting to question the idea of showing 2-suiters. It seems like there's unanimity that neither partner should try to escape with a 4432 pattern and that responder should treat a 5/4 as a single-suited hand. That means that the only 2-suited hand responder would want to show is a 5/5...and they're not that frequent.

How about....

P-content to play 1N X (something like 0-7)
.....P-hope we make this
.....rdbl-opener wants to run to his 5-cd suit but is seeking permission
..........2C-responder asks for opener's 5-cd suit
..........P-responder wants to play 1N doubled
redouble-business
suit-to play
2N+ Rubensohl-invitational+ hand


I don't understand Pass and redouble possibly with the same intent; so, even though two-suiters might be rare in responder's hand we can still use the space available for when they do come up.

Also, your 2N Rubensohl is certain to be much less needed ---since it encompasses hands which would be content to play in 1NTX.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#27 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 10:41

I'll explain what I'm thinking. The rdbl would be stronger than a pass and would place us in a force (play the hand or dbl the opponents) while the pass hand could be just content to play 1N doubled. Say responder has xxx QJxx Kx xxxx...he's not particularly inclined either to run from 1N or double off the opponents. If opener's redouble shows a 5 card suit, he's still not inclined to run. Lots of hands like these.

No doubt being able to show a 5/5 is nice, but responder might still guess well. If responder wants to compete, he'll bid the higher ranking suit. If he wants to run, he'll name the lower ranking suit...and then run to the higher ranking if it's doubled.

I would only use Rubensohl for 6-cd suits. They may take more tricks at the 3 level than partner can take in 1N. Plus, bidding these immediately clarifies the meaning of rdbl and then subsequent introduction of suit.

Welcoming of further criticism or agreement. Learned a lot already. Thanks.
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#28 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 11:53

Btw, now 1N dbl P P bid would show 5 of that suit and 4 of another. This finds a fit when responder is 4441
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#29 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 14:57

View Poststraube, on 2012-April-14, 09:28, said:

I'm really starting to question the idea of showing 2-suiters. It seems like there's unanimity that neither partner should try to escape with a 4432 pattern and that responder should treat a 5/4 as a single-suited hand. That means that the only 2-suited hand responder would want to show is a 5/5...and they're not that frequent.

I've been playing weak NT all my life and I definitely think you should run with 4-4 if the hand is weak enough that 1NT is unlikely to make. If they double your 14-16 the situation is not that different. With a hand such as xx Qxxx JTxx xxx I would hate to be playing a method where my choices are putting down dummy in 1NTX or guessing which red suit. I really doubt there is a strong majority for playing 1NTx when responder is 4-4 and weak.
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#30 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 15:28

View Poststraube, on 2012-April-14, 11:53, said:

Btw, now 1N dbl P P bid would show 5 of that suit and 4 of another. This finds a fit when responder is 4441


Do you really open 5422 1NT often enough to make this a sensible agreement?

View Postnigel_k, on 2012-April-14, 14:57, said:

I've been playing weak NT all my life and I definitely think you should run with 4-4 if the hand is weak enough that 1NT is unlikely to make.


I play weak NT and have no formal runouts with any partners; it is surprising how often 4th hand rescues you. Anyway, are you suggesting something along the lines of rdbl forces 4-card suits up the line?
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#31 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 18:08

Well, to Nigel and Vampyr both, I'm reall not sure of anything here. It seems there are lots of different opinions. So far I've learned (I think)

1. Responder shouldn't run with a 4432 before opener has a chance to show a 5-cd suit.
2. Next hand may rescue if responder passes.
3. Next hand will rescue more often if responder's pass is not forcing.
4. Neither 5/5s nor 8+ hcps are likely in responder's hand. If redouble is assigned to mean either one of these, it will be infrequent.
5. It seems important that redouble have a meaning by opener.

I don't think 5422s are frequent. I can see the value of running when opener has a 5-cd suit or is 4432 and weak or concentrated. How about...

1N dbl

P-no 5-cd suit, nf
.....P- a maximum or 4333
.....rdbl-wants to run, a 4432
.....other- suit
rdbl-transfer to clubs, possibly other meanings
2C-transfer to diamonds
Etc-transfers
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#32 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 19:00

This thread has progessed nicely. A warning though, about your lastest decision:

If redouble is used as described in your last post, or as you originally posted, do not disclose it as a transfer.

If one of the meanings might not include having a club suit, describe it as a relay showing clubs or (X) or (Y).
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#33 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 19:00

I have never heard of a scheme where responder passes, non-forcing, and opener redoubles. It seems very dangerous.
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#34 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 19:11

View PostVampyr, on 2012-April-14, 19:00, said:

I have never heard of a scheme where responder passes, non-forcing, and opener redoubles. It seems very dangerous.


Would you explain what you mean? In this latest, opener is only running when minimum or concentrated with two place to play. We might be out of the frying pan and into the fire, but we're only running when we're in a bad spot and have chances to get out of it.
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#35 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 19:16

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-April-14, 19:00, said:

This thread has progessed nicely. A warning though, about your lastest decision:

If redouble is used as described in your last post, or as you originally posted, do not disclose it as a transfer.

If one of the meanings might not include having a club suit, describe it as a relay showing clubs or (X) or (Y).


Point taken. Kgr had a nice contribution with some other possible meanings, but as these auctions are infrequent, I want to reduce memory load. Plus, if opener always knows that responder has a specific suit, he can sometimes compete.

In general I like the transfer idea. it has occurred to me that it gives the opponents extra tempos to do evil things.
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#36 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 20:04

View Poststraube, on 2012-April-14, 19:11, said:

Would you explain what you mean? In this latest, opener is only running when minimum or concentrated with two place to play. We might be out of the frying pan and into the fire, but we're only running when we're in a bad spot and have chances to get out of it.


I am sure that with a normal minimum opener should stay put.
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#37 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 20:13

View PostVampyr, on 2012-April-14, 20:04, said:

I am sure that with a normal minimum opener should stay put.


Wondering how you would use redouble. A maximum? Four spades?Two touching suits? You might not have a use for it, but I'd like to assign some meaning. Thanks for your input.
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#38 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-14, 21:52

With help from Aquahombre and others, I'm thinking of basing our structure on our passed hand 1N structure (which caters to weak responding hands). We can use this against artificial doubles as well as penalty doubles.

P-nothing to say, not forcing
.....rdbl-weak and 4432
.....suit-5cd suit
rdbl-weak, 5-cd minor or 5/5 majors
2C-stayman, could be 3-suit takeout of clubs or weak 5/4 in the majors, could be invitational hands including 4M/5m, Smolensk, etc
2D-transfer
2H-transfer
2S-size ask (not likely used against penalty doubles)
2N-GF puppet stayman
3m-invitational

So obviously 2S and 2N could be better assigned. However, this is less memory drain.

I'm more concerned with how responder should bid with an invitational hand and a four or five card major. Passing sounds right, but if opener gets in the way?

Also concerned with opener's rebids after a pass.
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#39 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 07:56

If you are playing system on here then you might also look into Moscow:

Pass forces redouble, either to play or scramble a fit
XX forces 2, with either a minor or both majors
other bids are standard, so Stayman, transfers, etc.

This was the first method I ever came up with, long before I found out it was a standard run-out system. It is ok for low memory load although not as effective in practise as the Helvic family imho. My favourite of these is modified Spelvic, probably more complicated than you would want but:

After 1NT - (X)
===============
Pass forces redouble, either to play or various other possibilities (see below)
XX forces 2 and shows a 1-suited hand
2 shows clubs and spades*
2 shows diamonds and spades
2 shows hearts and spades with equal/better spades
2 is natural and willing to be raised to 3 if Opener has a suitable hand
2NT is both minors, at least 5-5
3 of a suit is preemptive

After Pass and XX
=================
2 shows clubs and a red suit*
2 shows diamonds and hearts
2 shows hearts and spades with better hearts
(optional)
2 shows a GF hand with spades and another (freak)
2NT shows a GF hand with both minors (freak)
3 shows a GF hand with clubs and hearts (freak)
3 shows a GF hand with diamonds and hearts (freak)

After XX and 2
===============
Pass shows clubs*
2 shows diamonds
2 shows hearts
2 shows spades and unwilling for partner to raise to 3
(optional)
2NT shows a GF hand with spades (freak)
3 shows a GF hand with clubs (freak)
3 shows a GF hand with diamonds (freak)
3 shows a GF hand with hearts (freak)

* to cope with 4333 hands you bid as if you had 1 club more than is in your hand, then if 2 gets doubled a redouble shows this. Therefore all bids of 2 by Responder can be made with one club less than advertised.

In other words, immediate bids show spades, Redouble shows a 1-suited hand, and pass is everything else. I genuinely believe this is the best run-out method available, even without the ability to stop in 1NTX.
(-: Zel :-)
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#40 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 09:38

Our own methods are meant to A) show a wide variety of hands and B) be easy to remember. We are not looking for the theoretically best solution, so much as a playable method that both of us remember all of the time.

Over a penalty double of 1N:

Pass asks opener to XX, can be to play or scrambling
XX is a single-suited minor suit hand or majors, 6-4 invitational+(never happens), relays to 2C
Systems on (with the exception that we have slightly different rules for garbage stayman)

Opener has the option of bidding a 5 card minor suit instead of XXing.

This also fits our style of bidding, as we practically never open 1N with a 5 card major, so if opener has a 5 card suit, its always relatively cheap to bid.
Chris Gibson
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