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1N dbl

#1 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 15:59

Partner and I have been discussing how to cope with 1N dbl when 1N is 14-16 and dbl is penalty. We've switched recently from a more traditional approach to something new. Which is better and why?

More Traditional

P-nothing to say, invites partner to bid a 5-cd suit or redouble if advancer passes
rdbl-business
suit-5-cd suit

New Approach

P-nothing to say, invites partner to bid a 5-cd suit or redouble if advancer passes
rdbl-asks opener to bid 2C, shows a 5-cd minor or both majors
2C-clubs and a higher (4/4 usually)
2D-diamonds and a higher (4/4 usually)
2M-5-cd suit

I'm still uneasy about

1) not having the redouble alert partner that he can double advancer's runout
2) responder bidding out with a 4/4 ahead of opener. Opener might have a 5-cd suit that would manage opposite a doubleton.

Partner argues that 2-suited hands are very common and that it makes more sense catering to this than trying to catch the opponents.

What do other people think?
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#2 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 16:53

P-nothing to say ---like it, but although partner might bid a 5-cd suit we are content for the pass not to "invite" anything.

rdbl-asks opener to bid 2C, shows a 5-cd minor or both majors---love it and we do it.

2M-5-cd suit--looks good.

But, our experience is probably different from yours regarding getting busy with 4-4's. Prefer to be 5-5 with our 2-suited scrambles, and run to the 5-bagger with 5-4.

We are content that the NT opener does very little of the doubling for penalty when they run out...leaving that to the other guy.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#3 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 19:35

Yeah, I'm uncomfortable bidding a 4/4 before opener has a chance to speak. What, however, do you use 2C for? If you wait for a 5/5 (I'm inferring that you do so), then that bid will have little frequency. OK, I was hoping to hear more opinions before venturing my own, but here is how I'd like to play.

1N (dbl)

P-nothing much to say. This hand is content playing 1N doubled if it comes to that, could have some values or not, but has little or no interest in penalizing the opponents. If advancer bids out, this hand may double back in as takeout. If opener redoubles, this hand may sit or cooperate in a scramble. If responder sits for a redouble and the opponents run, no force has been created. Most likely responder has up to 8 points or so...just shy of an invitational hand.

rdbl-business, invitational+ hand, not 1-suited but may be 2-suited. If this hand later bids out, it is forcing and could be on a 4-cd suit.

suits-5-cd suits, to play. A 5/4 hand with less than invitational strength just bids its 5-cd suit.

2N+ transfers with 6-cd suits and invitational+. For example 1N dbl 3H is invitational+ in spades with a 6-cd suit.

Now 1N (dbl) P auctions. I think P here puts advancer under just a bit of pressure. Not if he has a good hand, but sometimes when he has a poor one. He can pass, but he doesn't know whether opener will pass or not. If he is weak, he may have to chance a pass or bid out on a 4-cd suit. Usually if advancer passes, opener will bid something, but if he's a 4333 he'll sit. Perhaps he'll sit with a maximum. Most days, he'll either bid a 5-cd suit or will redouble. The redouble announces a 4432 pattern. After a redouble, responder can decide whether to sit or participate in a scramble.
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#4 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 19:50

I have found that leaving the doubler on lead when we are in trouble
works best. Thus a system that mostly transfers seems to keep the
doubler on lead the most.

pass = any 2 suited weak hand ask p to bid lowest ranking 3+ card suit
we are in trouble and trying to play in a non x spot. If rho X p bid
we pass if the suit is acceptable and xx if we are short.

xx at least invitational (this wont always work) and invites p to
x opps if penalty looks good (vulnerability has to be considered)
or pass and let you decide.

2c transfer to d
2d transfer to h
2h transfer to s
2s transfer to c

2n 6 card minor 2 of top 3 and out this includes AK since odds are high
opps have a 1 suited hand.

3 (c/d/h) highly distributional hands (at least 55) in the 4-7 hcp range
promising suit bid plus higher rank. Axxxx x x xxxxxx for ex willing to
risk extra level due to game chance. Opener pass or correct or go to
game in suit.

3s 7/8? card minor headed by A or K and out asking opener to bid 3n 4c/d or 5c/d

3n all suits stopped vulnerability not conducive to low level penalty.

If lho runs from xx opener can

x = penalty
pass = unable to penalty x minimum and no stop.
2n = 1 stop minimum hand
if max bid lowest 4 card major or 5 card minor.
3n = to play

this should solve almost all bidding problems and leaves you with
some extra options.
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#5 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 20:13

Do you get a lot of invitational+ hands when about 31 of the points are already shown, half of which are behind your partner's hand?
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#6 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 20:53

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-April-07, 20:13, said:

Do you get a lot of invitational+ hands when about 31 of the points are already shown, half of which are behind your partner's hand?


No. Not a lot of 1N dbl as penalty auctions either. We're just gearing up for the GNT and trying to nail down loose ends. My impression is that most strong players retain rdbl as penalty and I'd like to follow that unless I can understand a better use for it. I do see the value of transfers, but it means we can't play 2C and we will want to play there a significant percentage of the time after 1N dbl.
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#7 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 21:18

weak notrumpers can really gain from a full transfer agreement something like recommended by Gszes. But you are playing a strong Notrump. Your proposed meaning for redouble seems a lot more useful than penalty. It would be hard to imagine playing 1NXX often enough to not be content with playing it merely doubled; and there are still opportunities to penalize their scramble if appropriate.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#8 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 21:31

Here's Bergen's suggestions...

http://www.bridgeguy...nDouble1NT.html
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#9 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 03:00

I do not think having a penalty redouble is very important, I would give up on that. I usually play bidding is natural, passing is natural, XX is SOS. I have also played that XX is to get out in a minor or both majors, 2C is C+higher, 2D is diamonds + higher, 2M is nat (2M nat is important for preemptive purposes). I have given very little thought to how to optimize it all, I just know I want to play pass as NF (but partner can bid), I do not care about penalty XX, and I want 2M to be natural, then I build around that.

I do play pass is forcing playing weak NT so I do something totally different over that fwiw
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#10 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 03:08

View Postgszes, on 2012-April-07, 19:50, said:

pass = any 2 suited weak hand ask p to bid lowest ranking 3+ card suit
we are in trouble and trying to play in a non x spot. If rho X p bid
we pass if the suit is acceptable and xx if we are short.

xx at least invitational (this wont always work) and invites p to
x opps if penalty looks good (vulnerability has to be considered)
or pass and let you decide.

2c transfer to d
2d transfer to h
2h transfer to s
2s transfer to c


You can improve on that by playing pass as either clubs or the weak two-suiter. Opener redoubles with 3+ clubs, or bids 2 with two. That gives away more information, but it's probably worth it in order to be able to sign off in clubs.
Lots of discussion does not guarantee enlightenment. - PaulG
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#11 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 07:46

Quote

I do not think having a penalty redouble is very important, I would give up on that. I usually play bidding is natural, passing is natural, XX is SOS. I have also played that XX is to get out in a minor or both majors, 2C is C+higher, 2D is diamonds + higher, 2M is nat (2M nat is important for preemptive purposes). I have given very little thought to how to optimize it all, I just know I want to play pass as NF (but partner can bid), I do not care about penalty XX, and I want 2M to be natural, then I build around that.


I agree that pass NF is superior, and also about 2M to play but why arent you playing like this over a weak NT ? I strongly believe that its the best runout for both range.

It avoid transfers wich is a big plus (rightsiding do not compensate for giving them more chance to penalized you on borderline values) and is quicker to preempt them (its more preemptive to be direct for one-suiter and delayed for 2-suiters than the opposite). Also scrambling with 3 suiters or quasi 3 suiters is often done best by XX rather than by bidding a suit. With a (54)(31) you start by XX allowing you to play in 2m undoubled rather than bidding 2H as H+S.
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#12 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 10:31

View Postbenlessard, on 2012-April-08, 07:46, said:

I agree that pass NF is superior, and also about 2M to play but why arent you playing like this over a weak NT ?


It is less likely that playing 1N X is right when they have doubled an 11-13 NT than a 15-17 NT for obvious reasons, and it is also more likely you are in trouble and need more running sequences so you can find your best fit as often as possible. Specifically, the problem mentioned in this thread of running with 4432 and not being forced to show 4-4 in those suits is important. If I'm 4432 with a bad hand over a weak NT, it's gonna be very important I play the 5-2 fit of partners suit rather than a 4-3 fit. 4-3 fits with not many points on trump leads can be really bad. Not to mention I want to always find the 5-3 fit. Compared to when I play 15-17 NT, where I would not run with 4432 unless i had like 0-3 points, I would take my shot passing with 4+ and partner would run to a 5 card suit then if he had one so we'd be alright. Yes, when I have a 4432 yarb over a strong NT I'd wish to play pass as forcing, but it's just frequencies obv.

I do not know what is right, but it makes sense to play NF pass over strong NT and F pass over weak NT for those reasons.
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#13 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 10:53

Thanks for the help. I have some follow-up questions.

1) When responder holds a 5/4, does he do better to run to the 5-cd suit thus not risking a 4-3 fit?

2) I assume a runout (DONT or redouble if it asks to run) is then only made with a 4-4-4-1 or a 5-5 pattern. Is that correct?

3) What does redouble by opener show? I'm thinking it shows specifically a 4432. Opener just passes with a 4333 and takes his medicine.

4) If redouble is not business, what does responder do with a good hand that wants to be in game? Does he risk a pass (play 1N doubled?) or use transfers and such at the 3-level? Probably a dumb question...
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#14 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 18:18

Justin I am curious about your full runout for weak Nt.

Also does opening 1Nt weak with with a 5M change anything ?
Wank comments on a ATB

"obviously north miscounted his cards and his points, whereas south only miscounted his cards"
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#15 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 14:31

View Postgnasher, on 2012-April-08, 03:08, said:

You can improve on that by playing pass as either clubs or the weak two-suiter. Opener redoubles with 3+ clubs, or bids 2 with two. That gives away more information, but it's probably worth it in order to be able to sign off in clubs.


a worthy suggestion indeed. I can't believe I left out xx by opener sigh.
I use the xx to show that opener has a 5/6? card minor. After the
xx responder can

bid 2c to show tolerance for clubs
bid 2d to show singleton or void in clubs and dia tolerance
bid 2h to show a VERY weak major 2 suiter

I tried very hard to make up for not being able to sign off in 2 clubs by
making up tricks in many places elsewhere by allowing opener to play most
of the hands. At IMPS the difference may not be significant enough to
make up for the inability to play 2c. I have to admit I dont know but,
in practice so far, signing off in 2c hasn't been a problem yet.
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#16 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 14:54

View Poststraube, on 2012-April-07, 19:35, said:

P-nothing much to say. This hand is content playing 1N doubled if it comes to that, could have some values or not, but has little or no interest in penalizing the opponents ... If opener redoubles, this hand may sit or cooperate in a scramble.


I am confused. On what basis would opener redouble unless Pass forced him to?
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#17 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 15:33

View PostVampyr, on 2012-April-09, 14:54, said:

I am confused. On what basis would opener redouble unless Pass forced him to?


I was thinking if he were 4432. With 4333, he'd sit.
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#18 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 15:44

View Poststraube, on 2012-April-09, 15:33, said:

I was thinking if he were 4432. With 4333, he'd sit.


Then, if I were you, I would play that Pass forces redouble, forces 2, forces 4-card suits, forces ANYTHING, so that opener is never tempted to do the above.
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#19 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 16:02

Stef doesn't really mean her recommendation; she is making a point (I hope). The point being, the thread should have convinced responder not to get busy with 4-4-3-2 hands. Now, do we really have to start all over and convince opener as well?
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 16:40

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-April-09, 16:02, said:

Stef doesn't really mean her recommendation


No, in fact I don't really like any schemes that do not allow for playing in 1NTX. But I like opener volunteering action (without a 5-card suit) a whole lot less!
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