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Making a Call - EBU

#21 User is online   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 07:53

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-03, 07:25, said:

That's okay, I suppose, but how do you ensure reasonable uniformity of decisions, not only across all TDs, but even for a single one?

Given that the actions themselves are not uniform, the decisions are not going to be either. However, I do think it's useful guidance, clarifying the murkier situation that existed previously. My guess is that TDs will rule in the way that avoids too many convolutions or bizarre outcomes, and in that a reasonable uniformity of approach will emerge. Let's not forget that this will all be done in consultation.
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#22 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 08:26

I think we may be establishing precedent of the form "the rules say X, but when people do Y instead, the rule changes to "X or Y". Do we really want to do that?
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#23 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 08:28

Maybe because I read the whole thread at one go, or maybe any reason you like, but I am totally confused, and half the posts do not seem to be answering the question. So, rather than answer any one of them, I shall just answer what I think happened, and if I am just repeating what is said, I am sorry.

West made a bid, North intended to make a stop bid, so he took a green stop card out of the box. East passed, and South effectively passed by entering the contract into the Bridgemate instead of using a green card. Law 25A does not apply because South has called so it is out of time, and the contract stands as West's bid.

South made a bid, West passed, North intended to make a stop bid, so he took a green stop card out of the box. East passed apparently ending the auction. Now South started entering the contract into the Bridgemate. Law 25A does apply because South has not called, so it is in time, and North gets to make his bid. The auction period has not ended since no opening lead was faced.

Incidentally, East was a bit naughty, wasn't he? Players do not place stop cards in the same place as the put pass cards, so he knew it wasn't a pass really, didn't he?
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#24 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 09:17

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-03, 08:26, said:

I think we may be establishing precedent of the form "the rules say X, but when people do Y instead, the rule changes to "X or Y". Do we really want to do that?


Aren't you based in the ACBL? This should be old hat to you!

But anyway, people do make irregular passes, and what is to be done? Shall I, for example, be deemed to still be in the auction period of hundreds of deals? Is there anything sensible about this?

What is important, I think, is that people do not get extra leeway for passing other than by placing a pass card on the table, just as I don't think that people who use incomplete designations when calling dummy's cards should get extra leeway.
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#25 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 11:46

View Postbluejak, on 2012-April-03, 08:28, said:

Players do not place stop cards in the same place as the put pass cards,

I wish it were true but unfortunately this is not always the case. An inveterate minority here in Germany do indeed put the stop card exactly where they would put a pass card, then place their bid on top of that, wait a few seconds (less than 10 of course, just like everyone else), and then pull the stop card out from under the bid.
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#26 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 14:04

View Postmgoetze, on 2012-April-03, 11:46, said:

I wish it were true but unfortunately this is not always the case. An inveterate minority here in Germany do indeed put the stop card exactly where they would put a pass card, then place their bid on top of that, wait a few seconds (less than 10 of course, just like everyone else), and then pull the stop card out from under the bid.

I've occasionally seen the same maneuver here in the US as well.

It's not too common, but that's partially because use of the STOP card is not as prevalent.

#27 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 15:02

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-03, 08:26, said:

I think we may be establishing precedent of the form "the rules say X, but when people do Y instead, the rule changes to "X or Y". Do we really want to do that?


Not really, but the problem is that 'alternative' methods of passing (tapping the table, picking up the bidding cards...) are so common that one has to do something.
This was discussed and the EBU came up with this ruling because there were a couple of cases where:

- a player had clearly intended to pass in the passout seat
- they had done so in some non-approved fashion (e.g. picking up the bidding cards, in one case tapping the table and saying "stick" or something similar)
- they then changed their mind about their final pass in a non-25A manner

TDs weren't sure whether to let them change the pass or not, because technically that hadn't in fact passed, so technically it seemed they should be allowed to make whatever bid they liked. It seemed unfair that someone who wasn't obeying the rules initially ended up in a better position than someone who was correctly following the bidding box regulations, hence the guidance that a TD may interpret an action as a pass.

We didn't want to start writing 'will' interpret it as a pass, because then you start having stupid discussions about what if someone was picking their bidding cards up because there was water spilled on the table, or they were drumming their fingers not passing or....
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#28 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 10:25

View Postmgoetze, on 2012-April-03, 11:46, said:

I wish it were true but unfortunately this is not always the case. An inveterate minority here in Germany do indeed put the stop card exactly where they would put a pass card, then place their bid on top of that, wait a few seconds (less than 10 of course, just like everyone else), and then pull the stop card out from under the bid.
Agree with barmar about "it happens here too", but frequently they don't "pull the stop card out". Thus leading to "losing" the stop card, getting another from another box, the next pair finding it behind the 3 card, ...
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#29 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 14:50

Given the ACBL's penchant for changing the rules to suit the whims of the players, I imagine that sooner or later here the Stop Card Procedure will disappear into the dustbin of history. In the meantime we're stuck with the myriad of players who can't or won't learn to use it properly. Not to mention the opponents who just ignore it. :blink: :( Perhaps the EBU will do better.
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#30 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 17:34

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-04, 14:50, said:

In the meantime we're stuck with the myriad of players who can't or won't learn to use it properly.


I thought the use of the Stop card was optional in the ACBL?

Quote


Not to mention the opponents who just ignore it. :blink: :( Perhaps the EBU will do better.


We have these too. My new thing is to throw the Stop card over my shoulder saying, "Well, I guess I won't be needing this".
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#31 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 18:05

View PostVampyr, on 2012-April-04, 17:34, said:

I thought the use of the Stop card was optional in the ACBL?

A lot of folks here think so too, but that's not what the regulation says.

View PostVampyr, on 2012-April-04, 17:34, said:

We have these too. My new thing is to throw the Stop card over my shoulder saying, "Well, I guess I won't be needing this".

Heh. Sooner or later, no doubt someone will call the TD and complain that your action has annoyed them. :ph34r:
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#32 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 18:15

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-04, 18:05, said:

Heh. Sooner or later, no doubt someone will call the TD and complain that your action has annoyed them. :ph34r:


Yes, I almost added that I will stop once I get in trouble for it.
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#33 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-April-05, 06:24

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-04, 18:05, said:

A lot of folks here think so too, but that's not what the regulation says.

The ACBL has officially stated that the Regulation's wording makes it optional. A agree with Ed, but the ACBL does not.

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-04, 18:05, said:

Heh. Sooner or later, no doubt someone will call the TD and complain that your action has annoyed them. :ph34r:

First time she tries it against me .... :( Perhaps not at Bournemouth, since we do not play against our team-mates. :)
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#34 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2012-April-05, 12:46

Yes, but David, you would always wait after the Stop card was shown...right? So it would be needed, and the reaction wouldn't happen?
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#35 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-05, 18:37

View Postmycroft, on 2012-April-05, 12:46, said:

Yes, but David, you would always wait after the Stop card was shown...right? So it would be needed, and the reaction wouldn't happen?


Precisely. I do not anticipate having to throw away my Stop card when playing against David, should I meet him in the pairs.
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