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Minor Suit Stayman diamond slam probe

#21 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-02, 12:15

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-March-29, 01:57, said:


If responder has a single-minor slammish hand, the auction starts with Stayman, then the minor ---or (if agreed) the Walsh Relay which begins with 2, and then negates the heart transfer before launching into the minor suit slam try.


A) Re: the Walsh Relay, what happens when Opener makes a Super-Accept ?

ie:
1NT - 2D!
2H - 2S! [ Walsh Relay , negating the -transfer; thus giving another way to bid 2S ( for the minors ) ]

But if Opener Super-Accepts:
1NT - 2D!
3H - ?? Now what ?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
B) I don't understand bidding Stayman and then 3C/3D to show the long minor, slammish .
Are you saying 3C/3D negates any interest in a Major ?

Normally ( Baze convention ):
1NT - 2C
2H - 3C/3D ( no fit for , have 4oM, here, and a good 5 or 6+ bid minor, slammish )
?? ( Now if Opener were 4-4 in the Majors, he would bid 3S next )

It looks like your "Stayman treatment" would eliminate finding a Major fit if 3C/3D negates interest in a Major.
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#22 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-02, 12:47

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-April-02, 12:15, said:

Re: the Walsh Relay, what happens when Opener makes Super-Accept ?

If you have Walsh Relays, there is only one super-accept of the 2D alleged xfer to hearts: 2.

If opener doesn't super-accept, 2 by responder breaks the xfer and starts Walsh

1N-2D
2H-2S
2N...forced, after which responders uses the 3-level to show broken/solid and the specific minor.

But, when the super accept occurs:
1N-2D
2S-2N* confirms a real transfer, forcing 3H.

1N-2D
2S-any 3-bid is the minor suit slam try, same bids as after breaking the xfer, but now direct.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#23 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-02, 12:54

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-April-02, 12:15, said:

I don't understand bidding Stayman and then 3C/3D to show the long minor, slammish .
Are you saying 3C/3D negates any interest in a Major ?

It looks like your "Stayman treatment" would eliminate finding a Major fit if 3C/3D negates interest in a Major.

That is one of the reasons it isn't our Stayman treatment, and we use the Walsh relays. But, people who do have that Stayman treatment must reserve 3S as natural (4-4 majors) after:

1N-2C
2H-3m....in case responder does have 4 spades. It can't be a control bid for the minor.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#24 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-April-02, 15:43



I need better suit quality in the minors to use MSS here do I?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#25 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-02, 16:01

Aquaman.... Thx
I had some notes on Walsh Relay, which apparently did not "sink in" until you mentioned that the ONLY Super-Accept
for is 2S!
Thx again.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#26 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-02, 16:05

Looks like 3NT to me.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#27 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 01:53

It looks like a slam try with both minors to me. We might even belong in seven opposite perfect cards like AQx xx AQxx KQ10x
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#28 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 04:21

View Postgnasher, on 2012-April-03, 01:53, said:

It looks like a slam try with both minors to me. We might even belong in seven opposite perfect cards like AQx xx AQxx KQ10x

Doesn't even need a 17 count like that, AQx, xxx, Ax, KQxxx is still a pretty good grand.
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#29 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 08:43

View Postjillybean, on 2012-April-02, 15:43, said:



I need better suit quality in the minors to use MSS here do I?



1N:2
3:?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#30 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 08:38

View Postjillybean, on 2012-April-03, 08:43, said:

1N:2
3:?

At this point you need some way to ask opener what he thinks of his hand. He might have one of those perfect hands we saw earlier, but he might also have something awful like AQx KJx xxx KQxx, where even 3NT isn't cold.

I've never played Minor-suit Stayman, so I'm guessing a bit, but what would 3, 3 and 3NT mean now? One of them (3NT?) ought to show this type of hand.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#31 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 08:51

Typically:

3nt is balanced or semi-balanced mild slam try (2344 or 3244 or 2245 or 2254). Raise to 4m is a serious balanced slam try and demands cuebids. 3M is shortage, could just be scrambling for the right game or could be stronger.

On the given hand I like 2s...3nt to show mild interest. Partner will know we need minor suit cards and to discount slow honors in the majors.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#32 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 08:59

Thank you, it was the 3N bit that I was missing. It's rather obvious now :)
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#33 User is offline   HighLow21 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 16:47

I realize this is a bit of a hijack, but for all but the most sophisticated partnerships I truly despise minor suit stayman.
There is a big difference between a good decision and a good result. Let's keep our posts about good decisions rather than "gotcha" results!
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#34 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-May-10, 01:14

Playing the variant of MSS where responder is showing #1 a weak diamond hand, #2 weak 55 minor or #3 44(54) minor slam hand
and after 1N 2S* opener can bid 3H/3S showing 44m and control in M how does responder put on the breaks with one of the weak hands?

1N 2S 3M 4m should be the start of keycard so can you use 1N 2S 3M 3N as a puppet to 4C, pass or correct?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#35 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-May-10, 04:23

View Postjillybean, on 2012-May-10, 01:14, said:

Playing the variant of MSS where responder is showing #1 a weak diamond hand, #2 weak 55 minor or #3 44(54) minor slam hand
and after 1N 2S* opener can bid 3H/3S showing 44m and control in M how does responder put on the breaks with one of the weak hands?

1N 2S 3M 4m should be the start of keycard so can you use 1N 2S 3M 3N as a puppet to 4C, pass or correct?

Opener does not do that. 2N denies a 4cm, 3m shows a 4cm. Forget other rebids over 2S (MSS). They should not exist.

Think of it like Stayman, the the words "minor suit" added.

The responses to 2C in regular Stayman are 2M with that major and 2D without one. Opener doesn't bounce around; he answers the simple question.
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#36 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2012-May-16, 22:13

View Postjillybean, on 2012-April-02, 15:43, said:



I need better suit quality in the minors to use MSS here do I?


That hand is a 14+ (can be upgraded to 15), with both minors. Over a maximum 1NT a minor slam is possible but not 6NT. As I don't play MSS over 1NT, I would transfer to 3 and than bid 4, to let opener choose the minor. (I admit that my minor system is not as complete as my major system, since all systems prefer majors to minors. I would probably end up at 5 of a minor, or 4NT.)

Even MSS is used, the auction probably end up at 5 of a minor, or 3NT.
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