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Minor Suit Stayman diamond slam probe

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 19:14

I've recently added MSS to the card

1N
2 Stayman
2 Transfer
2 Transfer
2 MSS or bust
2N relay to 3 weak or gf 4441/5440


After 1n 2*openers rebid is
2N no 4cm
3/ natural :)

over 2N responder bids
3 inviational 5+
3 bust


What I want to know is how does responder show diamond slam interest.

1N 2*
2N/3 4 KC for ?

1n 2*
2N/3 4N slam interest, asking for cue?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#2 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 20:22

1NT - 2S*
2NT - ??
......... 3C = weak sign-off, or Opener corrects to 3D for play
......... 3D = weak, long
......... 3H/3S = shortness & slammish (5/4)+ either way in minors
......... 3NT = 2/2 in majors and 5/4 either way in minors
......... 4C = freak: 1 1 6 5 where 4C shows the shorter suit ( IanD invention )
......... 4D = freak: 1 1 5 6

Similar structures for 3C or 3D over 2S* except you may want to use 4C/4D for something else.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#3 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 21:15

1nt=2s
2nt=


3c=weak with 5-5 minors
3d=sign off
3h=slam try with longer clubs
3s=slam try with longer diamonds
3nt=sign off


1nt=2c(does not promise major)
2x=3d=gf in diamonds.


1nt=2nt forces 3c
3c=pass to play, other are three suited hands.
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#4 User is offline   KamalK 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 22:18

Thanks Jilly for posting this here,and to Mike and Two4Bridge for their responses. Its something I've been meaning to learn for a long time. Presently I play transfers only to Majors and this post will now be v v useful.

Thanks again guys :)
"If anything needs to be done *at all*, it needs to be done well"
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#5 User is offline   mattias 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 01:28

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-28, 19:14, said:

After 1n 2*openers rebid is
2N no 4cm
3/ natural :)

over 2N responder bids
3 inviational 5+
3 bust



What does responder bid with the invitational club hand over 3? It seems like you end up too high here if you can bid 2 with an invitational hand with clubs.
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#6 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 01:49

View Postmattias, on 2012-March-29, 01:28, said:

What does responder bid with the invitational club hand over 3? It seems like you end up too high here if you can bid 2 with an invitational hand with clubs.

Start with Stayman followed by a 2NT bid.
You wont show clubs with inv. values, but you could not do this before without MSS,
you would have to bid 2NT as well, so have add. options, but the add. option dont
cover all.

The given structure implies, that Stayman has to be bid with all invitational hands,
regardless, if they have a 4 card major or not.
This has also some implications to Stayman Sequences, e.g.

1NT - 2C
2H - 2S

2S showes only 4 cards, catering for opener being 4-4 in the majors, there may be
other imlications as well.

Also the structure seems to be incomplete, since single suited gf minor hands are missing.
and it may well be, that 2C followed by 3C / 3D showes the gf hand with minors, or
those hands get to be shown via the jump response to 3m.

And 2C followed by 3C / 3D, showes what ever.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#7 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 01:57

Single minor slam interest hands are not part of the traditional MSS bag; nor are invitational hands.

The hand types for 2S are:

5+5+ minors, weak.
Both minors, strong.
Diamond bust.

If responder has a single-minor slammish hand, the auction starts with Stayman, then the minor ---or (if agreed) the Walsh Relay which begins with 2, and then negates the heart transfer before launching into the minor suit slam try.

Hands which do have both minors and find a "hit" after responding 2S continue with a major suit bid...showing shortness and slam interest.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#8 User is offline   mattias 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 02:21

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2012-March-29, 01:49, said:

Start with Stayman followed by a 2NT bid.
You wont show clubs with inv. values, but you could not do this before without MSS,
you would have to bid 2NT as well, so have add. options, but the add. option dont
cover all.


My point was that including 5+ clubs invitational in 2 with the given responding structure doesn't work, since you get too high after 3 rebid by opener.
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#9 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 02:50

1NT-3 slam try in diamonds....
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#10 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 03:33

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-28, 19:14, said:

I've recently added MSS to the card

1N
2 Stayman
2 Transfer
2 Transfer
2 MSS or bust
2N relay to 3 weak or gf 4441/5440


So actually some funny mix of MSS and transfer? It's not clear your diamond slam hands belong here, what are 3, 3...?
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
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#11 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 03:35

When giving-up 4-suit transfers, I think for the strong/long minor hands would have to be included in the 1NT - 2NT! sequence ( below ). Unfortunately, your long minor suit is first shown at the FOUR level ( not very efficient ) since the 3-level rebids are reserved for the 4 4 4 1 or 5 4 4 0 hands:
1NT - 2NT! ( forces 3C )
3C - ??
...... pass = bust
...... 3D/3H/3S/3NT show respective suit shortness ( 3NT showing shortness )
...... 4C = long, strong , slammish
...... 4D = long, strong , slammish

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The or invitational hands are shown with the 3-level jumps :
1NT - 3C and 1NT - 3D .
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 05:06

We alter the initial responses, we bid 2N with none of the above, 3 with 4 diamonds, 3 with 5 clubs meaning we can stick the weak hand with clubs in here too.

What do you play 2 followed by 3 as ?
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#13 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 08:44

View Postmgoetze, on 2012-March-29, 03:33, said:

So actually some funny mix of MSS and transfer? It's not clear your diamond slam hands belong here, what are 3, 3...?

The sequence you quoted is our 1nt structure, MSS followed that..

After 1n 2*openers rebid is
2N no 4cm
3/ natural

over 2N responder bids

3 inviational 5+
3 bust

we play
1N 3 puppet and 1N 3 as game invite


I am wondering what to do with a hand with diamond slam interest but perhaps as aguahombre says "Single minor slam interest hands are not part of the traditional MSS bag"
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#14 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 08:57

Elianna and I play this structure. The rest is:

1. A direct 3m is natural invitational.
2. 2s followed by 3c over 2nt is weak w/ both minors.
3. Minor one-suiter with slam interest starts with stayman and then bids 3m. This does not promise a major.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#15 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 09:44

Back in December there was this thread re MSS :

http://www.bridgebas...me/page__st__20

And within the above thread ( post 21 by Flameous ) was this reference about continuations after MSS :

http://toohighagain....tinuations.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Maybe there is something there that might prove helpful.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#16 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-30, 09:01

View Postawm, on 2012-March-29, 08:57, said:

3. Minor one-suiter with slam interest starts with stayman and then bids 3m. This does not promise a major.


I like this, Flameous system I'm sure is great but it looks far too complicated for me.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#17 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-30, 18:41

1N 2*
2N* 3M(singleton) 4M (void)

Does opener now cue?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#18 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-March-31, 06:10

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-30, 18:41, said:

1N 2*
2N* 3M(singleton) 4M (void)

Does Opener now cue?

Flameous put down 2 rules when Responder has shown both minors and shortness :

1) Use the "shortness suit" as RKC .

2) "Ask" from either side and Reply as 6 Ace ( but not necessarily for 2 Queens ) .

Opener has shown less than 4 cards minor with the 2NT . Let's say Responder next bids 3M ( shortness ).
If Opener sees a problem with 3NT, then make the cheapest cuebid.... there is still room BELOW 4M! ( as 6A-RKC ).

I would assume 4C and 4D would also be cues ( showing A, K or Q ) Edit: since you don't know which minor is going to be the side-suit.

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2012-March-31, 10:06

Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#19 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-31, 10:52

Thanks, that sounds great and I will have another read of Flameous's blog. I am discussing all of this with my regular partner but I was also hoping that I could sit down with casual/pickup partners and 'play MSS'. That idea now seems dangerous and needs a fair amount of discussion.

Going back to the basic response structure, I'm not sure but I think many players here play MSS 1N - 2S - 2N as denying a 4cm. What I have been reading on Bridge Guys uses 2N as both minors, slam interest and 3N as denying a minor, no slam interest. But this sounds far from main stream?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#20 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-March-31, 11:15

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-31, 10:52, said:

Thanks, that sounds great and I will have another read of Flameous's blog. I am discussing all of this with my regular partner but I was also hoping that I could sit down with casual/pickup partners and 'play MSS'. That idea now seems dangerous and needs a fair amount of discussion.

Going back to the basic response structure, I'm not sure but I think many players here play MSS 1N - 2S - 2N as denying a 4cm. What I have been reading on Bridge Guys uses 2N as both minors, slam interest and 3N as denying a minor, no slam interest. But this sounds far from main stream?


It's far from mainstream. In fact if you are using this method as a way to sign off in diamonds (among other things) you obviously do not want opener bidding 3NT on the worst possible hand from your perspective. Standard response to minor suit stayman is 2NT=no minor.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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