BBO Discussion Forums: What do you open this hand? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2

What do you open this hand? 1, 2, 3, 4

Poll: Opening bid (43 member(s) have cast votes)

Under the conditions mentioned I'd...

  1. open 1 Heart (29 votes [67.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.44%

  2. open 2 Hearts (3 votes [6.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.98%

  3. open 3 Hearts (3 votes [6.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.98%

  4. open 4 Hearts (1 votes [2.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.33%

  5. pass (6 votes [13.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.95%

  6. do something else (1 votes [2.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.33%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   Hanoi5 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,927
  • Joined: 2006-August-31
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Caracas, Venezuela
  • Interests:Bridge, Video Games, Languages, Travelling.

Posted 2012-March-28, 10:05

Both red, imp pairs, you deal and hold:

---
KQ9xxx
A87xx
xx

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


Mi Blog

In all fields of endeavour emotion is the arch-enemy of judgement.

Kelsey
0

#2 User is offline   S2000magic 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 439
  • Joined: 2011-November-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Yorba Linda, CA
  • Interests:magic, horseback riding, hiking, camping, F1 racing, bridge, mathematics, finance, teaching

Posted 2012-March-28, 10:25

I like 1: I can bid and rebid the diamonds to describe my shape.

The problems with preempting are that partner won't expect this much playing strength and may not put us in game (or slam!) when we belong there, or that we may belong in diamonds instead of hearts (not at all unlikely).
BCIII

"If you're driving [the Honda S2000] with the top up, the storm outside had better have a name."

Simplify the complicated side; don't complify the simplicated side.
1

#3 User is offline   daveharty 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 694
  • Joined: 2010-October-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ann Arbor, MI
  • Interests:Bridge, juggling, disc sports, Jane Austen, writing, cosmology, and Mexican food

Posted 2012-March-28, 10:45

One of the more sensible "rules" that novices are taught goes something like "Once you preempt, you are done for the remainder of the auction. Partner makes all subsequent decisions." I think it holds true in the vast majority of cases, and I think it wouldn't be bad to recommend a "no exceptions" policy to newcomers.

That being said, all such rules do have their exceptions, and I think a good case can be made for opening 2 with this hand, planning on freely bidding the diamonds next if the opportunity presents itself. That could go badly but there really isn't a good "standard" way of opening a hand like this. In a standard or 2/1 context, partner will expect a little more defense/less offense for a 1 opener. Another option would be to pass and hope to come in later with a "two suited" overcall, but that might not work for several reasons: the auction might not go as you need it to in order to make your planned bid; the auction might be at an uncomfortable level at your next turn; and it gives the opponents the chance to exchange a lot of information before your next turn, which vastly decreases the effectiveness of any preemptive action. So I wouldn't wait.

If I was dead-set against opening 2 and rebidding diamonds, I would probably open 1. I think the hand has too much potential to pass, and opening 3 or 4 as dealer seems a little random. I would give a lot of thought to opening 4 in third seat.
Revised Bridge Personality: 44 43 33 44

Dianne, I'm holding in my hand a small box of chocolate bunnies... --Agent Dale Cooper
0

#4 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,505
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Enschede, the Netherlands
  • Interests:matching LaTeX delimiters :(

Posted 2012-March-28, 11:13

oops, wrong forum
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
1

#5 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,595
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2012-March-28, 14:14

This hand is much too strong for a preempt.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#6 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 969
  • Joined: 2011-November-21
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Overbidding

Posted 2012-March-28, 15:59

Open 1H, rebid 2Ds. This has generally worked out for me. The spade void strongly suggests bad things are going to happen if you don't get in now.
1

#7 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,395
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2012-March-28, 18:16

The best advice to give a N/B player is to pass this hand and come in later. Sure, when you are a better player and more experienced and know how to deal with light opeings, then open it with whatever takes your fancy. Those advocatiing a 1H opening need to re read the forum title.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#8 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 969
  • Joined: 2011-November-21
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Overbidding

Posted 2012-March-28, 21:07

View Postthe hog, on 2012-March-28, 18:16, said:

The best advice to give a N/B player is to pass this hand and com in later. Sure, when you are a better player and more experienced and know how to deal with light opeings, then open it with whatever takes your fancy. Those advocatiing a 1H opening need to re read the forum title.


I'm a beginner still, clearly, by whatever metric you wish to apply. So with that said, why? If it turns out we have the spades, the two auctions that spring to mind are:

1H - 1S;
2D - 2S;
3D - ??? (Pass, 3H, or 3S or maybe a random 3NT punt).

And if I pass I get

1S - 2H;
2S - 3D;

and the same hand is making the same guess, though I guess opener is limited by his initial pass. That's a plus. I play kaplan inversion here so I can stop a bit lower, which is another plus (unless I get the dreaded spade reverse). But far more likely is I get a horror show like:

1H - (1S) - 2C - (4S) and who knows what's right. Pass is probably the percentage action, but it's still very ugly. I'm in a better position than if it went Pass - (1S) - 2C - (4S)
1

#9 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,595
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2012-March-29, 00:10

View Postthe hog, on 2012-March-28, 18:16, said:

The best advice to give a N/B player is to pass this hand and com in later. Sure, when you are a better player and more experienced and know how to deal with light opeings, then open it with whatever takes your fancy. Those advocatiing a 1H opening need to re read the forum title.

How will they ever learn if they never try it?

Anyway, I don't believe beginners should be taught on HCP alone, certainly not after they have been playing for 2 or 3 months. I think the rule of 20 works well here.

The rule of 20 is: add up your HCP and the number of cards in your two longest suits. If the total is 20 or higher, open at the 1-level.

For instance in this case, we have 9 HCP, 6 hearts, and 5 diamonds. The total is 20, so we open 1.

(For beginners I might recommend the rule of 20 for openings of 1 of a major, but require a point more, AKA "rule of 21", for openings of 1 of a minor.)
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
1

#10 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,395
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2012-March-29, 00:55

View PostCthulhu D, on 2012-March-28, 21:07, said:

I'm a beginner still, clearly, by whatever metric you wish to apply. So with that said, why? If it turns out we have the spades, the two auctions that spring to mind are:

1H - 1S;
2D - 2S;
3D - ??? (Pass, 3H, or 3S or maybe a random 3NT punt).

And if I pass I get

1S - 2H;
2S - 3D;

and the same hand is making the same guess, though I guess opener is limited by his initial pass. That's a plus. I play kaplan inversion here so I can stop a bit lower, which is another plus (unless I get the dreaded spade reverse). But far more likely is I get a horror show like:

1H - (1S) - 2C - (4S) and who knows what's right. Pass is probably the percentage action, but it's still very ugly. I'm in a better position than if it went Pass - (1S) - 2C - (4S)


Why? Because after a 1H opening a hand with a 12 count opposite will force to game even if the hand is a total misfit and wonder what went wrong. Had this hand been posted in the Intermediate forum I would have recommended an opening. By the way, you mention Kaplan Inversion in this forum? Haven't you missed the boat? perhaps you want to suggest Wilkosz as well?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#11 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,666
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-March-29, 02:38

Pass.

1H is ok, but an advice for a Beginner / Novice is keep sticking to the point count.

Understand the point ranges, the requirement for opening bids and so on, and keep the list
of exception, the times you do things different than the general rules says, to a min.
And - Doing well on freaks, and 6-5 hands belong into this category, is also nothing at
the top of the list of things Beginner / Novices should care about.

I know, this is boring, not exciting, but works, and is the only way to keep a clear head.

Open with a 1 level bid, if you have 12HCP / points, or what ever your lower limit your local
teacher sets. If you have less, pass or open with a preempt.

Of course this an over simplification, but unless you know the basic rules in your sleep, you
wont be able to handle the rest.

If you got taught to add length points, i.e. a point for a 5th / 6th card in a suit to your
HCP count, and to open if the sum is larger or equal to 12, than by all means do it.
Here this would mean, that you have 9HCP, 3-4 length points, making the total 12-13 points.
And you open with 12 points.
The rule of 20 is just a different phrasing of the above, using different words, introducing
an add. concept.

If you use this way of justify an opening bid, than ok. Hopefully you bring up length points on
your own.

A good question to ask to an experienced player is:

I am a Beginner / Novice, we had a disaster on the following hand.
Do you think the hand has features of interest, that need to interest me now, or did I encouter
a situation that could not be handled with the knowlede of a Beginner / Novice.
And if you get the answer, forget this hand for the time being, than put the hand aside.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
1

#12 User is offline   655321 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,502
  • Joined: 2007-December-22

Posted 2012-March-29, 03:55

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2012-March-29, 02:38, said:

Pass.

1H is ok, but an advice for a Beginner / Novice is keep sticking to the point count.


The OP has been posting here for more than 5 years. Hanoi, perhaps in the future you might consider posting your questions in the I/A forum if you want to avoid this sort of answer.

This is a perfectly good 1 opening, I don't see any point in pretending it is a Pass just because this is the Novice/Beginner Forum.

65 is a good shape, the KQ are in the same suit, Aces are very good cards, all your cards are in the long suits which is good, you even have a void. You would not normally open a hand with so few HCP at the 1 level, but this hand is an exception.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
0

#13 User is offline   phil_20686 

  • Scotland
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,564
  • Joined: 2008-August-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scotland

Posted 2012-March-29, 05:16

Virtually all advanced players will open this hand 1H, so it seems right to teach beginners to open these types of hands. HCP are not an ideal metric for distributional hands: To see this note that there are hands where we can make slam here opposite only 4 HCP, if partner has 5 hearts to the ace and a singleton diamond. Of course, such huge fits are very rare. But there are plenty of nondescript hands with three or four hearts where you will want to be in game.

When you have extreme distribution, you can open lighter, because distributional hands take more tricks, especially when you have a fit. The downside, of course, is that you risk going for a number with no fit, as you will not take many tricks on power. This is a risk worth taking. With 55 and points in the suits, you should open most ten counts, with 5431 you should open reasonable 11 counts, because 5431 shape plays better than 5332 or 5422.

Bridge is a deep and complex game, and I have never thought it wise to hide this complexity from beginners - it just leads to internalising bad habits and rule based approaches imo.
The physics is theoretical, but the fun is real. - Sheldon Cooper
1

#14 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,666
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-March-29, 05:30

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-March-29, 05:16, said:

<snip>
Bridge is a deep and complex game, and I have never thought it wise to hide this complexity from beginners - it just leads to internalising bad habits and rule based approaches imo.


#1 Yes, Bridge is fairly complex.

#2 "Hiding complexity leads to bad habits and rule based approaches.".

This statemt is ok, but heavily depend on the target audience you try to teach.
If you start a physic course (my impression is, that this is your background, I may
be wrong), you dont start with Einstein / relativity theory, you start with Newton,
a simplification.
You start with Euclidian theory, even when the world around us is Not Euclidian, the
point is Euclidian works good enough for most scenarios we encounter in real life.

If you come with the whole bunch of points to consider when making certain decisions,
than only the smartest will survive, if they can be bothered.
This is a possible way, and will kepp the game to the elite, but thats it.
But it may well be, that your pubils are smarter than those I encounter, in which case
your approach may well work, and even be best, because they dont get bored.

In the end this is something each teacher needs to find out, what is the amount of
complexity to start with.
This is also depend, what the goal, of the peoble is, that start learning the game, what
level do they want to achieve.
Lots of peoble dont want to become world class, they want to learn the game, and want to
avoid the real embarassing things, and have fun.

As a closing remark, it may be a good idea, to have a dedicated thread to disuss teaching
strategies, how to aproach teaching the game, what is required complexity for a start and
what not.
Such a thread, would also be approbriate for this new section, maybe we can get some experience
BIL teacher to contribute there experience.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
1

#15 User is offline   Codo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Joined: 2003-March-15
  • Location:Hamburg, Germany
  • Interests:games and sports, esp. bridge,chess and (beach-)volleyball

Posted 2012-March-29, 05:48

Uwe, I like your ideas and your examples, they are great.

But if you teach your pupils Forum D (+) or something similar, you can count 12 FL, which is very close to a 1 opening anyway.
Kind Regards

Roland


Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
0

#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,666
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-March-29, 05:57

View PostCodo, on 2012-March-29, 05:48, said:

Uwe, I like your ideas and your examples, they are great.

But if you teach your pupils Forum D (+) or something similar, you can count 12 FL, which is very close to a 1 opening anyway.

Yes - in my first post in this thread, I mentioned, that if you use length points, you come to 12-13FL,
and based on this, you will know, that the hand could be considered an opening bid, and than it would
be ok to open - assuming you use length points.
You could use LTC - "The hand has less than 7 loosers, hence it is an opening bid."
Of course you would have gotten the LTC backwards, but lots of peoble have subscribed to this statement
in the past, ok, why not, maybe add and at least ??? quick tricks, whatever.

But of ocurse peoble just read "Pass", "stick to the point count as a beginner / novice", ... and skipp the
rest. I dont mind an opening bid, I dont mind, if someone teaches a method, that says, this is an opening bid.

But hopefully they have a consistent teaching plan in place, that lets them explain, why this hand is an
opening bid.

But what I read in the posts here, I am heavily in doubt, that this is the case.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I would most likely pass myself, by my partner would open, the hand is on the border,
what we consider an opening bid.
I would pass at my first turn, intending to get in later, this is not an approach I would
ever teach, because it is not a majority appraoch, I know the cons and the pros, I made
up my mind, and will consistenly recheck if I learned something to reconsider.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
0

#17 User is offline   Antrax 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,285
  • Joined: 2011-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-March-29, 06:35

P_Marlowe, if a student came to you asking how the world behaves when you're traveling at 0.9c, would you still recommend he use Newtonian physics to keep a clear head? 1-2-3-4 point count is an okay estimate for balanced hands. This question is about a 6-5.
0

#18 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,666
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-March-29, 06:48

View PostAntrax, on 2012-March-29, 06:35, said:

P_Marlowe, if a student came to you asking how the world behaves when you're traveling at 0.9c, would you still recommend he use Newtonian physics to keep a clear head? 1-2-3-4 point count is an okay estimate for balanced hands. This question is about a 6-5.

If I know the student, and I know he is N/B, than I would say, dont worry, traveling with 0.9c
is not that common, first try to travel with 0. ... 1c.
I may also be able to point out areas, that are more fruitful for his future development than
knowing what to do with the 65 hand.

I would expect a good teacher, who is interest in getting his teaching across, to do this.
A good teacher will know, what to adress immediate and what to post pone.
And if he does not do it, he is at best a mediocrite teacher.

And maybe, just maybe, I have taught a method that makes this specific hand worth an opening
bid, under the method I introduced, ... and than I would ask what did I teach you?
But maybe the hand does not fit, than I would write the hand down, and come back to the hand
several month later.

If he phrases the question different, I may tell him, what

#1 would be common/ a majority action
#2 would be a less common/ a minority action
#3 my action

and maybe, I may try to explain, the differences.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
1

#19 User is offline   the_dude 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 221
  • Joined: 2009-November-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 2012-March-29, 09:51

IMO you have to pass unless your partnership has agreed that you can open hands like this. Lacking that agreement, partner might really bury you in a variety of ways and be justified in doing so.

Come in later with a 2-suited bid, since you are vulnerable (and a passed hand) partner should expect something like this.

You certainly can't open 2H with this (way too good, partner will pass with many hands that can make 4H or 5D or more) and opening 3H or 4H in first seat is a little much for me. In third seat I'd have no problem with 3H or 4H if you felt like swinging.
I don't care how old or tough or mean you think you are - if a toddler hands you a toy phone, you answer that sh*t
0

#20 User is offline   ahydra 

  • AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,704
  • Joined: 2009-September-09
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-March-29, 10:15

I'd bid 1H (yes it has only 9 points, but it has two good suits and an easy rebid - also, "6-5 come alive").

But I'm more interested in why the world around us is not Euclidean. Last time I checked, if I step forward a certain amount I don't go further by travelling in one direction rather than another!

ahydra
1

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2


Fast Reply

  

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users