[MickyB]

I play full relays in a few situations in my main partnership - pretty soon, we'll be playing them whenever a balanced hand can ask and an unbalanced hand can describe, e.g. over a 1NT rebid. The memory load with the current schemes is horrific, I'm trying to bring them all in line to make it more playable, but it's pretty tough -

• The amount of space available varies
  
• Relay responder is sometimes limited
  
• 5440 is sometimes possible
  
• 5-5 is sometimes possible
  
• There are almost certainly some other variables I've forgotten to mention

I'll probably post specific questions in the near future, but first, any general advice?

[rbforster]

MickyB, on 2012-March-28, 09:10, said:

I play full relays in a few situations in my main partnership - pretty soon, we'll be playing them whenever a balanced hand can ask and an unbalanced hand can describe, e.g. over a 1NT rebid. The memory load with the current schemes is horrific, I'm trying to bring them all in line to make it more playable, but it's pretty tough -

any general advice?

Have you tried using symmetric relays? They aren't always the most space-efficient, especially if some shapes could be missing (like 5/5 majors over a standard 1♥), but they are super easy to remember. You can use them at +1 level or +2 level too, if you find yourself in a relaying situation that starts higher up. As I said, it's not optimal, but they cover all the shapes and are very easy to remember.

[akhare]

rbforster, on 2012-March-29, 09:39, said:

Have you tried using symmetric relays? They aren't always the most space-efficient, especially if some shapes could be missing (like 5/5 majors over a standard 1♥), but they are super easy to remember. You can use them at +1 level or +2 level too, if you find yourself in a relaying situation that starts higher up. As I said, it's not optimal, but they cover all the shapes and are very easy to remember.

+1 -- in fact, after 1M (showing 5+), you can use 2♣ as GF and play symmetric +1 relays that resolve below 3N for the common shapes that matter. Naturally, you will have to show some rare shapes like 5440 as 5431, but it has never been an issue..

[Free]

There are 2 'big' options:
- play as natural as possible to begin with and then use a relay to pattern out
- play symmetric relays (or something similar)

The first approach helps with placing contracts fast, is sometimes easier to break relays, requires fewer memory,... but it's less efficient. The second approach is much more efficient, but it needs some artificial steps from time to time (so sometimes you have to ask the entire hand before ending in a stupid 3NT contract for example). I prefer the 2nd approach whenever you have a GF relay, because your slam bidding improves quite a lot. When the relay can be invitational, the first approach is imo better.

[Dark Widow]

MickyB, on 2012-March-28, 09:10, said:

I play full relays in a few situations in my main partnership - pretty soon, we'll be playing them whenever a balanced hand can ask and an unbalanced hand can describe, e.g. over a 1NT rebid. The memory load with the current schemes is horrific, I'm trying to bring them all in line to make it more playable, but it's pretty tough -

1.
• The amount of space available varies
  2.
• Relay responder is sometimes limited
  3.
• 5440 is sometimes possible
  4.
• 5-5 is sometimes possible
  5.
• There are almost certainly some other variables I've forgotten to mention

I'll probably post specific questions in the near future, but first, any general advice?

It is pretty important in a relay system to have standard rules to apply and not to have special rules for every other auction. It does not matter so much what those rules are, only that they are consistent and apply (nearly) all of the time.

1. Have a rule with a limit as to how far above "standard" you are willing to keep relays on. If you have extra space then you can usually get back to standard by including the range ask at the beginning instead of at the end. If you have extra space and a limited hand describing then you probably need to assign the hand types more efficiently.

2. No problem, just omit the range ask at the end of the shape relays. Several systems do this anyway for passed hands. Make sure you agree whether zoom is still on in this case though.

3. If you have included the pre-ask for range then you can include these awkward hand types into the middle step. If not then you need to have a rule for fixing this. I think the simplest solution is to include this with your 5-5 hands and then dedicate the first step to 5440/5404. This might depend on how you have constructed your relays though.

4. If you use a symmetric-style scheme then once you have shown 2 suits naturally you can use the first step for 5+ in the second suit and higher bids for 4 cards in the second suit. If 5+ is not possible then you would just skip this step.

5. Since you specifically mention 1NT rebids, one variable which can be very helpful is to use an impossible suit as a transfer to a possible suit. In this way you can often use a standard NT structure with minimal changes. For example, if Responder has denied both majors and Opener rebids 2NT as a ganeral balanced hand with whatever range then you could play 3♣ to ask for a 5 card major or for 4-4 minor fits, with 3♦ as a transfer to clubs and 3♥ as a transfer to diamonds. That kind of approach moves away from pure relay but might actually fit better with what you are trying to accomplish.