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What's this double? ACBL

#1 User is offline   Coelacanth 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 09:41

Matchpoints, none vul if that matters



1NT was natural.

How do you play this double? In a "standard" SAYC or 2/1 structure in the ACBL, what is the default meaning (if any) of this double, and are there any other common agreements? Which agreements would be alertable?
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#2 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 09:50

My default is take out and I see no reason to change that here.
I have no idea what the default meaning is.
Where I life, alertable doubles do not exist.
With screens, I would expect anything what is not penalty to be alerted. But I would surely have to ask about the double to protect myself.
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#3 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 09:52

The default meaning for double opposite a natural NT bid is penalty. However there are good arguments for playing many of them as take-out. If you have agreed "System On" after a 1NT overcall and "Stolen Bid Doubles" after NT interference then this would presumably be a transfer to spades...
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#4 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 11:08

Standard and SAYC have the default agreement of penalty but I would play it as takeout with a 2/1 partner. Just my opinion and if this is undiscussed, it certainly will be after the hand.
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#5 User is offline   Coelacanth 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 11:34

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-March-12, 09:52, said:

The default meaning for double opposite a natural NT bid is penalty.

This is what I assumed at the time (I was the 2 bidder).

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-March-12, 09:52, said:

However there are good arguments for playing many of them as take-out.

This is what I decided they must be playing when RHO (the 1NT bidder) took out to 3.

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-March-12, 09:52, said:

If you have agreed "System On" after a 1NT overcall and "Stolen Bid Doubles" after NT interference then this would presumably be a transfer to spades...

It turns out that this is what doubler was doing. After the hand she berated (mildly) her partner for bidding 3 after she'd "shown 5 spades".

All's well that ends well. The complete auction was


Despite the fact that I didn't have my bid (I had basically QJT-seventh and out) this was set one trick for a good matchpoint result.
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#6 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 12:16

IMO, and apparently Codo's, stolen bid doubles are required alerts. I would prefer that "take-out" in this situation be alertable, but am not quite as opinionated about that.

It seems as if North might have used the UI from her pard's failure to alert the stolen bid double. 3C is a possible bid with a slightly offshape NT overcall containing long clubs, and passing 3C must be a L.A. if the doubler has club tolerance.
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#7 User is offline   Coelacanth 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 13:34

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-March-12, 12:16, said:

It seems as if North might have used the UI from her pard's failure to alert the stolen bid double. 3C is a possible bid with a slightly offshape NT overcall containing long clubs, and passing 3C must be a L.A. if the doubler has club tolerance.


Well, yes, this is true. The NT overcaller was 3235 and the doubler was 5233 I think. Fortunately there was no damage (3 was cold and EW aren't buying it for 3). In a tournament I would have called the TD had there been damage, but this was a club game and I was the director, so we just had a friendly chat about it after the hand.
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#8 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 13:39

View PostCoelacanth, on 2012-March-12, 09:41, said:

Which agreements would be alertable?


In the EBU the double is alerable if it is not takeout.
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#9 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 14:15

View PostVampyr, on 2012-March-12, 13:39, said:

In the EBU the double is alerable if it is not takeout.

Yes, but that alone doesn't answer whether stolen bid doubles should be alerted in EBU. In addition to being taken out most of the time, they show five or more of the next suit. They are not really the normal meaning of a "takeout" double; they are transfers.
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 14:48

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-March-12, 14:15, said:

Yes, but that alone doesn't answer whether stolen bid doubles should be alerted in EBU. In addition to being taken out most of the time, they show five or more of the next suit. They are not really the normal meaning of a "takeout" double; they are transfers.


Right; I was answering the question in the OP: Which agreements would be alertable?

Of course the "stolen bid" doubles would be alertable, if anyone around here had ever heard of them, which I doubt.
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#11 User is offline   dcohio 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 06:20

I play systems on (including Lebensohl) after a NT overcall, so this double for me is penalty.
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#12 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2012-March-16, 22:34

Penalty. This is a non-fit auction opposite partjner's well-defined hand.
Often 3rd hand is quite weak. That is, not enough to double 1NT.
Different of course if responder had raised to 2, then their fit takes precedence so double = tko.
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#13 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-March-17, 02:11

Quote

The default meaning for double opposite a natural NT bid is penalty.


That might be in some parts of the world but for example you won't find a semi-decent player in my country who would want this double to be penalty and surely nobody would understand it as penalty without prior agreement.
I mean, it's time to stop calling agreements from 40 years ago "standard" when 95%+ of good players play it as t/o.
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#14 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2012-March-17, 03:49

View PostCodo, on 2012-March-12, 09:50, said:

My default is take out and I see no reason to change that here.
I have no idea what the default meaning is.
Where I life, alertable doubles do not exist.
With screens, I would expect anything what is not penalty to be alerted. But I would surely have to ask about the double to protect myself.
All the same for me
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#15 User is offline   Quartic 

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Posted 2012-March-17, 18:23

View PostCoelacanth, on 2012-March-12, 11:34, said:

Despite the fact that I didn't have my bid (I had basically QJT-seventh and out) this was set one trick for a good matchpoint result.


Why do you say you didn't have your bid? In this sequence 2 shows a weak distributional hand that wants to play in hearts, which is what you have.
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#16 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 03:13

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-March-17, 02:11, said:

I mean, it's time to stop calling agreements from 40 years ago "standard" when 95%+ of good players play it as t/o.

I think it is a good idea to answer the OP's question. With a random (intermediate) partner the default agreement is penalty. You can disagree with this as much as you like but this is the simple truth. The OP went on to ask about other agreements. This means it is also right to answer that there are good reasons to play it differently and/or that most experts play it differently. The vast majority of top players also play some form of Smith, unusual over unusual, and many other things. That does not make these standard for most (lower-level) bridge players either.
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#17 User is offline   Coelacanth 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 09:15

OK, maybe I just really am too old-fashioned. Last night we had the following sequence:



OK, I'm not THAT old-fashioned; South's double was for takeout. I was North. I bid 2 on a 3433 six-count.

Even after posting this thread, it did not occur to me that East's double could be anything other than penalty.

As it turns out, East had a singleton heart and West held four of them. Obviously, both of them thought it was a takeout double (although West should have left it in anyway with JT8x). West bid 2NT, which made exactly for avg-minus to EW. East was 4144 with the singleton A and about 7 HCP.

I guess I'll never learn.
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#18 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 12:30

View PostCoelacanth, on 2012-March-19, 09:15, said:

OK, I'm not THAT old-fashioned; South's double was for takeout.


Huh... takeout of what? Isn't "Director, please!" a better way to show 4-4-4-4 shape than "double"?

For me, South's double shows 18-19 balanced, and you are meant to pass with a 6-count.
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#19 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 22:03

For post number 17.

South X isnt takeout its a big hand, usually 18-19 bal, but some unbalanced hand would have to start by doubling too.

East double should be penalty/ or penalty-ish since he can bid 2S for takeout (even with a 31(54) its safe to bid 2S since we denied 5S with our first pass) or 2NT for both m.
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#20 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 04:48

We play it as T/O.

Ignoring the opening bid, the old standard meaning of X was penalty, but
even 15-20 years ago experts started to switch to T/O.

If default meaning translates to common meaning 1 or 2 bridge player
generations ago, than penalty, but I dont think anybody would claim,
that todays default meaning of an 1NT opener is 16-18.

To answer the alert question - go to the law section, state the local
place the bidding took place, and you will get the answer for your specic
regulation set.

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