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Play 5 clubs A problem for beginners

#1 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 01:46


Having found no stopper for NT or a club slam, your partner and you end up in a 5 contract. West leads the A and continues with the K, but unfortunately his partner gives him count so he doesn't continue a third round, but instead shifts to the 6. Plan the play.
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#2 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 03:21

Spoiler


ahydra
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#3 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 04:34

Did you really just bring up a squeeze in the N/B forum?
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#4 User is offline   BunnyGo 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 04:59

Did you really not put your answer in a spoiler at least?
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#5 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 05:27

His squeeze line cannot work anyway lol
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#6 User is offline   kayin801 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 07:17

Spoiler

I once yelled at my partner for discarding the 'wrong' card when he was subjected to a squeeze that I allowed by giving the wrong count with too high a card. Now he's allowed to pitch aces when the opponents have the king in the dummy. At trick 2. When he could have followed suit. And blame me.

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#7 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 08:05

View PostBunnyGo, on 2012-March-28, 04:59, said:

Did you really not put your answer in a spoiler at least?


Now done. And (to the hog) I did mention that the squeeze doesn't work.

I didn't spot the
Spoiler
though - nice one kayin801.

ahydra
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#8 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 09:14

This thread does not belong in the N/B forum.
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#9 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 12:23

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-28, 09:14, said:

This thread does not belong in the N/B forum.

I'm on the fence about that. Establishing a long suit with ruffs is a fairly basic tactic, perhaps suitable for novices as learning material.

Agree though, that all the discussion beyond "ruff two hearts in hand" belongs in intermediate. The whole point of establishing this forum was to make true B/Ns comfortable posting B/N level questions. Intermediate/advanced analysis may intimidate them back to mere lurking.
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#10 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 13:36

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-28, 09:14, said:

This thread does not belong in the N/B forum.


I agree. Try teaching restricted choice to a class of new(er) players.
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#11 User is offline   Trumpace 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 17:17

Agree with JillyBean. This seems a bit too advanced for beginner/novice players.
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#12 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 18:09

View Postahydra, on 2012-March-28, 08:05, said:

Now done. And (to the hog) I did mention that the squeeze doesn't work.

I didn't spot the
Spoiler
though - nice one kayin801.

ahydra


So why even bring it up?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#13 User is offline   kayin801 

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Posted 2012-March-28, 21:35

View Postbillw55, on 2012-March-28, 12:23, said:

I'm on the fence about that. Establishing a long suit with ruffs is a fairly basic tactic, perhaps suitable for novices as learning material.

Agree though, that all the discussion beyond "ruff two hearts in hand" belongs in intermediate. The whole point of establishing this forum was to make true B/Ns comfortable posting B/N level questions. Intermediate/advanced analysis may intimidate them back to mere lurking.


Agree that this isn't B/N when you're taking more complicated situations into account. But I don't think it's right to just ignore that the good heart suit sets up other possibilities. Not to nitpick too much, but if the point that OP really wanted to get across was "we can set up a 3rd spade pitch on hearts with a discard if hearts are 4-4 and that's the only chance to make the hand" then perhaps they should have chosen worse heart spots so that it wasn't even a possibility to pick off the opponent's honors. FWIW I think it's a fairly interesting situation on the I/A level with the hand as written.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread with my post though :(
I once yelled at my partner for discarding the 'wrong' card when he was subjected to a squeeze that I allowed by giving the wrong count with too high a card. Now he's allowed to pitch aces when the opponents have the king in the dummy. At trick 2. When he could have followed suit. And blame me.

East4Evil sohcahtoa 4ever!!!!!1
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#14 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 00:59

Indeed, that was the point I was trying to make. Many players at my club made only 10 tricks in clubs by trying the no-win finesse in spades. I was planning to show how:
a) We have 10 tricks on top
b) The 11th must come from hearts
so c) "test" hearts, and what I had in mind (mostly because it worked at the table) is try and develop a long-suit trick when hearts are 4-4. The ruffing finesses and squeeze chances were not on my mind, though the "official" solution I had in mind also involves "and pay attention whether you see J and Q drop".

In all honesty, I'm not sure whether the problem itself is flawed or whether strong players posting complex answers to it is the problem.
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#15 User is online   dwar0123 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 02:17

We are all still trying to learn what content is appropriate for the new forum and I think this post comes fairly close.

The added chances of the ruffing finesse were to much and thus I agree that making the spots worse would have been a good idea. I might have even added another to dummy just to make it an almost lock that it would work rather then requiring an unlikely split. That way when the reader see's it, they can post their response with a fair amount of certainty.
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#16 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 06:26

You're right. Probably either replacing the spade J with the Q or adding a heart would've improved the problem - I gave the hand as it was, without considering how I might distill the principle.
Thanks for the suggestions.
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#17 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 10:19

View Postthe hog, on 2012-March-28, 18:09, said:

So why even bring it up?


I mentioned it to give readers some idea of my thought processes:

No other way to establish spade tricks => need a squeeze or endplay.
The latter is ruled out because we need all the remaining tricks, so it's a squeeze.
Find the squeeze suits - must be H and S because we have no D.
Check it works - construct the end position, and spot it doesn't due to lack of entries.

This should give the aspiring player an idea of what kinds of things to consider when planning a declarer play line, though I agree that squeezes are more of an intermediate-level topic.

ahydra
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