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2N [P] 3C [X] - what now?

#1 User is offline   jules101 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 05:39

What are your recommended methods after your auction starts



How does North describe her hand now?

She may or may not have a club stop combined with a 5-card major, one 4-card major, both 4-card majors, or no-4card major!


What immediate bids and continuation sequences do your partnership use?
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#2 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 05:43

I have no agreements but I would just bid my normal response with a major and pass or redouble without one depending on my club holding. If of course my club holding is really good I might redouble even with a major.
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#3 User is offline   jules101 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 05:48

Prompted to ask by seeing this in vugraph records of Vanderbilt Final Q4



Result 4S-2, but 3N+1 made in other room after South just raised 2N to 3N.
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#4 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 05:56

To me, the first priority is to show a club stop, so I play a system it like they did in your example:

All hands with a club stopper answer to 3 as if there had been no double.
Without a club control, you pass first, partners XX asks again.

Your own xx had been business, a suggestion to play.

The actual hand had not worked well for me too.
Kind Regards

Roland


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More system is not the answer...
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#5 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 06:14

3S there is silly. The idea of "puppet"-type systems is for the strong hand to play, so North being the strong hand should simply bid his hearts rather than "puppet".

My partner and I were discussing these kinds of sequences last night. He wanted to keep it simple with "just make the normal stayman response, never pass". But I like the idea of pass = no club stop, normal stayman response = club stop, XX = "to play opposite a suitable hand". Partner can bid his suit (or puppet) if opener passes.

ahydra
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 06:58

View PostCodo, on 2012-March-26, 05:56, said:

To me, the first priority is to show a club stop, so I play a system it like they did in your example:

All hands with a club stopper answer to 3 as if there had been no double.
Without a club control, you pass first, partners XX asks again.

Your own xx had been business, a suggestion to play.

The actual hand had not worked well for me too.

Would it not be better to play pass as showing a stop and bidding denying one? The opponents are less likely to bid again when we have something in their suit and just occasionally Responder will be able to sit knowing Opener has something decent in clubs opposite.
(-: Zel :-)
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#7 User is offline   kreivi68 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 07:04

My method is to pass with club stopper and answer stayman without it.
There is one good reason. It doesn't matter if pass shows or denies
stopper after 2NT but it does after 1NT.

1NT-P-2-X
?

If NT opener doesn't have stopper LHO is more likely bid 3.
That's why I want to show my majors immeaditely if I don't have clubs stopped.
And after 2NT I just want to play same method than after 1NT
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#8 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 07:04

System on.

XX - showes an interest in playing 3C, pass showes
worthless length.
It may be sensible to switch the meaning of 3NT and
Pass.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#9 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 09:02

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-March-26, 06:58, said:

Would it not be better to play pass as showing a stop and bidding denying one? The opponents are less likely to bid again when we have something in their suit and just occasionally Responder will be able to sit knowing Opener has something decent in clubs opposite.


Sounds good.
But we play it the way we do, because we play this "system" after late interuptions in slam bidding too. So, if we use any kind of asking (Keycard, spiral scan, whatever) and we get doubled, our pass denies a control in that suit, while bidding more shows a control. This is sometimes superior and we prefer to have the same meta agreements to having the best possible agreement in a special situation.
Kind Regards

Roland


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#10 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 09:30

View Postahydra, on 2012-March-26, 06:14, said:

3S there is silly. The idea of "puppet"-type systems is for the strong hand to play, so North being the strong hand should simply bid his hearts rather than "puppet".

ahydra


Silly? Bessis / Ish simply had a bidding misunderstanding. Bessis thought they bid the 'other major' and Ish either forgot or played something different.

I play the same method Bessis uses:

- All bids after a double show a stopper;
- Pass denies a stop, then redouble asks again and then 3M = OTHER major.

I need to check with my partners and see how it functions after a 2N opening and the forms of Puppet and Romex Stayman I use.
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#11 User is offline   jules101 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 10:17

Thanks all useful.

So if playing 5-card puppet Stayman and one's normal responses would be:

3 = one or both majors
3/ = 5-carder
3N = denies 4 or 5 card major


But now the auction goes:

2N [P] 3C [X]
P [P] XX to restart the auction then

3D be as above, and 3M show a 5-carder.


If the initial pass denies a stopper you are now in a fix with a 3343 hand with 3 small clubs, cos you don't really want to reply 3N now!

I guess with a 3352 type hand you need to bid 4D?
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#12 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 10:25

If I'm playing Puppet, it probably makes sense to play it like this after a double:

After xx:

3 = one/both 4 card majors, then 3M by responder SHOWS the suit (not the other one).
3M = OTHER 5 card major.
3N = neither, but responder knows we don't have clubs covered.

If the double comes back to responder, 3M should mean 5 of that major and four of the other major (reverse smolen), assuming there isn't another way to show the hand.

Curiously enough there is an article in this month's Bridge World called "Criss-Crossing Doubled Stayman" by Dave Caprera.
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#13 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 10:29

FWIW:


1. I much prefer to pass with a stopper, for the reasons of possible interference.

2. After a pass without a stopper, redoubling is not the only option, for me. I like 3 as 3/4 and no stopper, 3 as 3/4 and no stopper, 3 as 4-4 majors and no stopper, and 3NT as 3-3 majors, no stopper. This way, Opener will be encouraged to jump into the choice of games better when we end up looking for a Moysian.
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#14 User is offline   campboy 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 11:53

View Postahydra, on 2012-March-26, 06:14, said:

3S there is silly. The idea of "puppet"-type systems is for the strong hand to play, so North being the strong hand should simply bid his hearts rather than "puppet".

It is not clear you want the strong hand to play here, since the strong hand is also known to be weak in the suit which is likely to be led.
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#15 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 12:00

View Postcampboy, on 2012-March-26, 11:53, said:

It is not clear you want the strong hand to play here, since the strong hand is also known to be weak in the suit which is likely to be led.


yes, the point of inverting the majors is to put the dangerous hand on lead.
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#16 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 13:07

XX: Good four card club suit
Pass: Weaker four card club suit or good three
Otherwise make your normal rebid

3Cxx will make quite often when people are doubling on KQxxx and not much else, and they have nowhere to go. So it makes sense to try to punish them if you can. Actually, 3Cxx makes on this hand though the above method would not get you there.
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#17 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 00:07

Ive never played this but keeping the option of penalizing them (most important imo) and putting the overcaller on lead while still being simple..

XX = good 4 cards
pass = decent 3 or weak 4
3D = 4 or 5H may have 4S
3H = 4 or 5S
3S = no M stopper
3NT no stopper no M (5D or 3343)

responder accept the transfer with 3 and jump to 4M with 4.

Even better would be to aim to play in moysian where its 4 for responder and 3 for opener (since opener rate to be short in clubs) but i dont think there is a simple way to do this for a fairly rare specific option.
Wank comments on a ATB

"obviously north miscounted his cards and his points, whereas south only miscounted his cards"
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#18 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 00:07

Ive never played this but keeping the option of penalizing them (most important imo) and putting the overcaller on lead while still being simple..

XX = good 4 cards
pass = decent 3 or weak 4
3D = 4 or 5H may have 4S
3H = 4 or 5S
3S = no M stopper
3NT no stopper no M (5D or 3343)

responder accept the transfer with 3 and jump to 4M with 4.

Even better would be to aim to play in moysian where its 4 for responder and 3 for opener (since opener rate to be short in clubs) but i dont think there is a simple way to do this for a fairly rare specific option.
Wank comments on a ATB

"obviously north miscounted his cards and his points, whereas south only miscounted his cards"
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