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Multi Landy and ML openings?

Poll: Bonus question (8 member(s) have cast votes)

do you have a preference?

  1. Lebensohl (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Rubinsohl (4 votes [50.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  3. No preference (2 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  4. Other method (2 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

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#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-25, 21:00

I've just had a game with a pickup partner who wanted to play Multi Landy over the opps 1nt; 2 majors, 2 6crd M, 2/ 5M/4m which is fine (it may be time to change my 1nt defence again :) ) but he also suggested we play these as our opening weak 2's, except 2 remains strong, gf. What do you think?
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#2 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-March-25, 21:30

Seems like a common use of 2M openings in Multi. How does the poll relate to the question?
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#3 User is online   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-March-25, 21:43

Awesomely bizarre poll, but yeah lots of people like those openings.

Note there is no loss in playing 2H as 5H + 4 Spades or a minor, though the responses are a bit more complex.
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-25, 22:16

View PostStatto, on 2012-March-25, 21:30, said:

Seems like a common use of 2M openings in Multi. How does the poll relate to the question?

Oh, I didn't realise that. But then Multi is not GCC legal so there is no use getting excited about it.

The poll has no relation what-so-ever to the question.
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#5 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-25, 22:26

To rephrase your question: what do you think of Minimulti with Muiderberg openings?

The answer is not much, I think it stacks up very poorly compared to Wilkosz and Weak 2s. Of course most people play a Multi with strong options with Muiderberg. Whether playing a Multi with strong options is good depends, IMHO, on how much it helps the rest of your system. That said if I do play a Multi with strong options then I much prefer 2 to be Ekrens. 2 as Muiderberg is OK but I prefer promising 5-5 when vulnerable.
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#6 User is online   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-March-25, 22:59

View Postmgoetze, on 2012-March-25, 22:26, said:

To rephrase your question: what do you think of Minimulti with Muiderberg openings?

The answer is not much, I think it stacks up very poorly compared to Wilkosz and Weak 2s. Of course most people play a Multi with strong options with Muiderberg. Whether playing a Multi with strong options is good depends, IMHO, on how much it helps the rest of your system. That said if I do play a Multi with strong options then I much prefer 2 to be Ekrens. 2 as Muiderberg is OK but I prefer promising 5-5 when vulnerable.


Wilkoz suffers from annoying regulation.

This does bring a question up though - if you're playing with regulations that ban brown sticker horribleness but let you play mini multi (and you are free to season with strong options), and any opening that includes a specified suit in it's weak options as well as any number of strong options, does anyone have any view on what's the best configuration of weak 2 openings, assuming your only systematic problem children hand types are the standard 2C openers?


My current casual partnership line-up is 2C as weak 2D or strong options, mini multi 2D (no obvious systematic case for strong inclusions), ekrens 2H (4/4 majors or better) and 2S as a totally rubbish/hilarious 4+ spades and 5+ in a minor gadget. We used to play Ekrens 2D and major weak 2s.

Wondering what other people's views on this is. There is only a limited amount of 'packing' you can do without attracting a brown sticker.
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#7 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-25, 23:13

View PostCthulhu D, on 2012-March-25, 22:59, said:

Wilkoz suffers from annoying regulation.


Yes, but of course from a GCC point of view Multi, Wilkosz and Ekrens are all equally illegal (the latter supposedly being "destructive" in a way that a regular 3 preempt isn't).

Anyway if BSC are banned I usually still prefer 3 weak 2s to Minimulti+Muiderberg. Minmulti+Ekrens sounds fine to me.
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#8 User is online   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-March-25, 23:23

I gather you can play it if you're 5/4 because of Flannery? I try and avoid thinking about it.

I guess my basic question is, is there anything useful you can do with two spades in a minimulti and ekrens framework where BSC are banned (otherwise any 5/5 two suiter has some appeal).

Edit: Whoops, forgot the central part of the question.
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#9 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-25, 23:28

View Postmgoetze, on 2012-March-25, 22:26, said:

To rephrase your question: what do you think of Minimulti with Muiderberg openings?

The answer is not much, I think it stacks up very poorly compared to Wilkosz and Weak 2s. Of course most people play a Multi with strong options with Muiderberg. Whether playing a Multi with strong options is good depends, IMHO, on how much it helps the rest of your system. That said if I do play a Multi with strong options then I much prefer 2 to be Ekrens. 2 as Muiderberg is OK but I prefer promising 5-5 when vulnerable.


For anyone else who does not know these conventions..

Minimulti http://www.clairebri...s/minimulti.pdf 2 weak 2 in either major

Muiderberg http://www.bridgeguy...rbergLucas.html 2M weak 5M+4m

Wilkosz 2D = unknown major and another suit
or Wilkosz-for-Dummies 2M = that major and another suit.

Ekrens http://www.bridgeguy...rens2Hearts.pdf 2 44 in M
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#10 User is online   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-March-25, 23:36

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-25, 23:28, said:

For anyone else who does not know these conventions..


Sorry for not clarifying.

Additionally I recommend this: http://www.chrisryal...k.two/index.htm it is a gold mine for anyone who enjoys having far to many ways to preempt like a lunatic.
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#11 User is offline   BunnyGo 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 00:16

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-25, 21:00, said:

I've just had a game with a pickup partner who wanted to play Multi Landy over the opps 1nt; 2 majors, 2 6crd M, 2/ 5M/4m which is fine (it may be time to change my 1nt defence again :) ) but he also suggested we play these as our opening weak 2's, except 2 remains strong, gf. What do you think?


I was just picturing this (yet to happen?) conversation, and it gave me a chuckle:

<2D><alert>
RHO: What is it, please?
PP(pickup partner): Multi Landy, it shows one of the majors with preemptive strength.
RHO: DIRECTOR!
Director: What's the problem?
RHO: They're playing a multi-2
PP: No it's multi-LANDY, not multi-2
Director: multi-Landy isn't GCC either.
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#12 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 00:19

View PostCthulhu D, on 2012-March-25, 23:23, said:

I guess my basic question is, is there anything useful you can do with two spades in a minimulti and ekrens framework where BSC are banned (otherwise any 5/5 two suiter has some appeal).

Not that I know of. You can play 2 = both minors, or 2 = club preempt (possibly with strong options) and 3 = both minors, but I think 55m is problably more useful than either of these.

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-25, 23:28, said:

For anyone else who does not know these conventions..

Gotta learn sometime. ;) Eventually it might spare you from asking questions about well-known conventions which have been discussed often. ;)
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#13 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 00:36

View PostBunnyGo, on 2012-March-26, 00:16, said:

Director: multi-Landy isn't GCC either.

Really? :( Because the 2 bid does not promise a specific suit?
I bet I could play it for months before anyone catches on.
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#14 User is offline   kreivi68 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 00:40

Anybody willing to play Multi 2(or two-suited 2-openings) should read
the following article by Pietro Campanile. It gives something to think about.
This guy has done statistical analysis of Bermuda Bowl, European Championships
and Olympics and laid down the question: does Multi really work against weak two's?

http://www.migry.com...dfs/multi2D.pdf
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#15 User is online   the hog 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 00:45

Nardin and Lodge, two English internationals quite a number of years ago, played 2H = 4H and a long clubs 10-14, and 2S = 4S and long Cs 10-14. I played this for a while and it was ok. It got rid of the dreadful precision 2C opening and limited that to Cs only or Cs and Ds.
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#16 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 00:47

View Postkreivi68, on 2012-March-26, 00:40, said:

Anybody willing to play Multi 2[diamonds (or two-suited 2-openings) should read
the following article by Pietro Campanile. It gives something to think about.
This guy has done statistical analysis of Bermuda Bowl, European Championships
and Olympics and laid down the question: does Multi really work against weak two's?

http://www.migry.com...dfs/multi2D.pdf

The obvious conclusion would be to play a Minimulti, 2 as a strong balanced hand, and never open 2. Doesn't sound right to me.
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#17 User is offline   BunnyGo 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 01:01

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-26, 00:36, said:

Really? :( Because the 2 bid does not promise a specific suit?
I bet I could play it for months before anyone catches on.


That's my understanding, but I didn't double check the chart before posting. I just thought the whole conversation was amusing...when PP just "knows" this isn't multi-2 and so it must be GCC ok.

Edit: just double checked. See "competitive #7(b) Overcalls of NT" and note that one suit must be known if the bid is above 2

This post has been edited by BunnyGo: 2012-March-26, 03:36

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#18 User is online   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 01:26

Analysis is interesting but why does the minimulti do well and the multi does not? As it is bad even when it is the weak inclusion, I'm guessing it's because you can pass the minimulti in a fix, but there has to be something to it.
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#19 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 01:56

View PostCthulhu D, on 2012-March-26, 01:26, said:

Analysis is interesting but why does the minimulti do well and the multi does not? As it is bad even when it is the weak inclusion, I'm guessing it's because you can pass the minimulti in a fix, but there has to be something to it.


I think the theory is that if you have support for both majors you can bid 3M or 4whatever more freely after minimulti or multi w/strong. Personally I think that means people are misplaying multi w/strong or using too common strong options.

Also I don't see why you can't pass multi w/strong. ;)
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 01:58

View PostCthulhu D, on 2012-March-26, 01:26, said:

Analysis is interesting but why does the minimulti do well and the multi does not? As it is bad even when it is the weak inclusion, I'm guessing it's because you can pass the minimulti in a fix, but there has to be something to it.


The fact that the mini-multi can be passed out makes a huge difference IMO. There is a lot of pressure on the opponents since it might be passed out. Don't most of our defences to Multi include things like: Pass and then double is... double and then double is... It's nice to know there is going to be a second chance.
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