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Matchpoint operation ATB

#21 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-March-23, 13:33

2N is only good if it's conventional and game forcing (which is popular style where I live among people who don't play classic polish club) otherwise it's very bad bid, if 2NT is not forcing it's just a judgement blunder.
Passin 3N is another blunder. Once you have hidden your 4 trump support and luck out to not play in 2N you should correct it and go to 4S.
As to 3N I think it's reasonable. I probably wouldn't looks for 5-3 spade fit either with that hand opposite 18-19 balanced with 3+ diamonds.

Also, S is clearly weak player. If he posted in other forum he would get more understanding and less sneaky remarks ;)
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#22 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-March-23, 14:26

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-March-23, 13:05, said:

Also, I thought most experts had given up checkback over a 2N rebid. Don't we all play the 3 level as natural and forcing now? Or transfers. Checkback just makes minor suit slam bidding into such a nightmare.

I didn't mean a gadget known specifically as 'checkback'...I suspect that the problem arises because I don't and never have played anything that I or partner called 'checkback'. I have played a variety of conventions that allow responder to 'checkback' to find a fit...with transfers being my current preference, altho 2 of my partners prefer a form of wolff (if I have no bridge-logic reason otherwise, I would default against anything called wolff, but that's another story :P )
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#23 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2012-March-23, 15:32

I would rebid 4, not 3. Partner should expect an unbalanced hand when I rebid 3, otherwise, why didn't I open 1NT? So I think if I wanted to downgrade the hand based on the Jxx and Qx I sh/would've opened 1NT.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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In all fields of endeavour emotion is the arch-enemy of judgement.

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#24 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-March-23, 15:39

2NT is obvious the problems are the 3NT and the final pass, both are absurd, with the final pass being the worst
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#25 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-March-23, 16:08

The post belongs in the beginner/intermediate section because the 2n
bid is so bad (bid 3s). That alone is not helpful so let me try to say why.

You have heard of stayman puppet stayman transfers,checkback,nmf,fsf etc.
All of these devices exist because of the importance of the 8+ card major
suit fit. It does not mean playing in a 44 major suit fit will always be
better than 3n but it will beat 3n a LOT.

Thats important but even more important is a raise to 3s allows p to
reevaluate their hand for a suit contract. P might have a side singleton
or void that makes 3n not only unappealing but provides enough extra
"points" to allow them to bid a game otherwise missed if you had bid
2n.

Finally p with 5 little spades and "knowing" you could not have 4 decided
to not look for a 53 fit and wisely chose 3n. They chose 3n because you gave
them bad information and they came up with the wrong conclusion.

The point is you have found at least an 8 card major suit fit (pot of gold) and
you failed to share this wealth of informaton with p and your side ended up in
a vastly inferior 3n contract. There are times rebidding 2n might might be worthy
of consideration but they look nothing like your hand.

1. balanced distribution 4333 best
2. POOR trumps (yours are superb)
3. ALL side suit double stopped and/or better

xxxx AKx KQJ KQT

thats an example of bidding 2n vs raising spades

When you decide to avoid playing in a major suit fit have a GOOD reason to
avoid it. W/O a good reason you will probably be best off playing the
major suit contract.
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#26 User is offline   kayin801 

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Posted 2012-March-23, 18:04

2NT is really bad but not the worst thing ever for helping partner see what our hand is, should we want them to take control. Granted that seems inappropriate on this hand, hence the reason it is bad. Not bidding over 3NT to show 4 card support makes me want to drink heavily.

I would use NMF with the N hand, but 3NT is the 3rd worst call. If S got pissed at N for his bidding...
I once yelled at my partner for discarding the 'wrong' card when he was subjected to a squeeze that I allowed by giving the wrong count with too high a card. Now he's allowed to pitch aces when the opponents have the king in the dummy. At trick 2. When he could have followed suit. And blame me.

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#27 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-March-23, 19:27

View Postmikeh, on 2012-March-23, 12:47, said:

I suspect that part of the problem here was that S recognized that 4 was an overbid, and couldn't bring himself to make the correct call of 3 because he held 18 hcp,


It's strange. Many people think it is a crime to have a little in reserve. If 3 shows 16+, they think that it is an underbid when they have 18 (and not a great 18 in this case.) Similarly, people will play a 2NT rebid as 18-19 but never stop short of game when they have 19.

This thread might be better in the Beginner Forum than Intermediate, because a lot of the posts make very good, basic points. My bit of advice to newer players is:

Quote

You are allowed to have a maximum.

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#28 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2012-March-23, 21:41

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-March-23, 13:33, said:

Also, S is clearly weak player. If he posted in other forum he would get more understanding and less sneaky remarks ;)


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#29 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2012-April-06, 19:28

View Postrduran1216, on 2012-March-23, 11:07, said:

2/1 context matchpoints ATB





3NT - 1, whose to blame?

Are you serious?
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#30 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 04:03

View Postbillw55, on 2012-March-23, 12:42, said:

I think they are saying that it may be interesting for intermediates, but not for experts, and as such should be posted in the intermediate forum.

Intermediates wouldn't bid like that, it may be best posted in the WC
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And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#31 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 09:28

View Postrduran1216, on 2012-March-23, 11:07, said:

2/1 context matchpoints ATB



3NT - 1, whose to blame?



4-1 whose to blame?

Rainer Herrmann
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#32 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 09:53

View Postrhm, on 2012-April-07, 09:28, said:

4-1 whose to blame?

East for having the A.
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#33 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 11:38

I can't believe I missed this thread. Rduran are you serious? There are hands (OK, just a few) where I would make a 2N rebid with AKJx of spades, but this is not one of them.

@RHM - if you're going come up with a hand where 3N is better than 4 with a nine card fit at pairs, this isn't a very compelling example.
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#34 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-April-07, 13:31

View PostPhil, on 2012-April-07, 11:38, said:


@RHM - if you're going come up with a hand where 3N is better than 4 with a nine card fit at pairs, this isn't a very compelling example.

Sample deals are rarely compelling, but I think the critic is a bit harsh.
What I did is to change the North hand only very slightly.
It sounds to me that most poster believe it to be a sin to play 3NT with an 8 card or longer major suit fit.
I am not one of them, particularly at matchpoints.
I readily admit you need fine judgment and not always are such antifield operations successful.
But for sure I like my overall matchpoint (and IMP) scores resulting from such actions

Rainer Herrmann
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#35 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 13:02

View Postrhm, on 2012-April-07, 13:31, said:

It sounds to me that most poster believe it to be a sin to play 3NT with an 8 card or longer major suit fit.
I am not one of them, particularly at matchpoints.

Rainer Herrmann


This is not what we are saying. What we are saying is that the right way to get to 3N with an 8 or more card major fit is to start by showing your hand, and then see what partner thinks.

For one thing, there are plenty of hands where partner would probably raise to 4S opposite 18-19 bal with 4 spades, and yet would pass 2N. How about T9xxx Qxx x Kxxx. Surely we are all passing 2N with that? For most experts any bid over 2N is GF due to the lack of space. Are you driving a game now? After 1d-1s-3h = 4S 18-19 bal this is an easy raise. I think most experts play some artificial raise to deal with 18-19 with support now-a-days. Transfer walsh and strong club remove it from the diamond opener, else cheapest splinter of a GF 2N bid is fairly normal.

Secondly, what we are saying is that if you were to bid 2N with 4 card support, then this is not the hand. With a strong 4 card side suit and Jxx Qx in the minors, this is a disaster waiting to happen in 3N, when game could be trivial in 4S. Sure there are counter examples, but I doubt they really matter.

Finally, does north not have a fairly normal 3N bid over 3S in your example hand, to show a balanced hands with slow cards in most suits? After 1d-1s-3s-3n, if you play that to play (and if you think playing 3N with 4-4 and 5-4 fits is a winner, you should), I think south has an easy pass.
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#36 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 16:32

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-April-08, 13:02, said:

For most experts any bid over 2N is GF due to the lack of space

Is it? That seems inconsisent with the modern style of responding on tram tickets.

Anyway, almost everyone I know plays transfers, Wolff Signoff, or some other method where you can sign off in responder's suit at least.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#37 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 17:46

South obviously.
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#38 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 01:34

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-April-08, 13:02, said:

This is not what we are saying. What we are saying is that the right way to get to 3N with an 8 or more card major fit is to start by showing your hand, and then see what partner thinks.

Finally, does north not have a fairly normal 3N bid over 3S in your example hand, to show a balanced hands with slow cards in most suits? After 1d-1s-3s-3n, if you play that to play (and if you think playing 3N with 4-4 and 5-4 fits is a winner, you should), I think south has an easy pass.

I agree and I do not really support or recommend the 2NT rebid.
However, what you suggest is not what I read here in the expert forums.
After major suit agreement, most play proudly 3NT as conventional, something named serious or not serious.
So in practice if opener raises, there is no way getting back to 3NT.
If opener bid 2NT he might still end up in spades, but if opener raises the decision will have been taken for most partnerships.

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#39 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 01:46

View Postrhm, on 2012-April-07, 13:31, said:

It sounds to me that most poster believe it to be a sin to play 3NT with an 8 card or longer major suit fit.



Why? It seems like this forum is completely supporting the 3N bid, in which case almost everyone here is supportive of playing 3N with the north hand if it has an 8 card spade fit (else, they would not support 3N by the north hand when it can check back for a 5-3 spade fit).

I am in the camp of completely 100 % agreeing with the 3N bid, and 100 % disagreeing with the 2N bid.
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#40 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-April-09, 01:50

View PostFluffy, on 2012-March-23, 15:39, said:

2NT is obvious the problems are the 3NT and the final pass, both are absurd, with the final pass being the worst


I know you play that 2N is artifiicial and forcing. But assuming you are being reasonabl and assuming standard methods, what is the advantage of bidding 2N followed by 4S? Not only do you risk playing 2N a small percentage of th time rather than 3S, but it makes no sense to me to bid 2N then 4S with a 4432 18 count when you could just bid 3S which if balanced is a balanced 18 count. Yes, you could bid an artificial 2N forcing, instead of an artificial 3S bid which would always be unbalanced, but if that is not specified I have no idea why you would assume it.
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