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Cheating?

#21 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 02:12

View PostVampyr, on 2012-March-28, 18:10, said:

You'd be surprised -- I have played in a number of places in Europe where they use hand-dealt boards for Swiss teams. With Victory Points.

What point are you trying to make about the scoring method?
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#22 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 03:21

View Postgordontd, on 2012-March-29, 02:12, said:

What point are you trying to make about the scoring method?


That sets of boards will vary a lot in their swinginess. A contestant who wins 10-0 on a flat set of boards will not get as good a score as a contestant who scores 150-100 on a very swingy set, though they may have played much better. This is why I think that Victory Points are inappropriate for contests without duplicated boards.
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#23 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 04:08

View PostVampyr, on 2012-March-29, 03:21, said:

That sets of boards will vary a lot in their swinginess. A contestant who wins 10-0 on a flat set of boards will not get as good a score as a contestant who scores 150-100 on a very swingy set, though they may have played much better. This is why I think that Victory Points are inappropriate for contests without duplicated boards.

On the contrary, converting to VPs flattens out such discrepancies to some extent, which is why I think it would be even worse to score by raw IMPs if the hands weren't pre-dealt. I think you've got it the wrong way around.
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#24 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 06:15

View Postgordontd, on 2012-March-29, 04:08, said:

On the contrary, converting to VPs flattens out such discrepancies to some extent, which is why I think it would be even worse to score by raw IMPs if the hands weren't pre-dealt. I think you've got it the wrong way around.

I think that Stefanie did not consider scoring by raw IMPs as the alternative.

I think she means:
- Hand dealt boards (and different in different matches) -> Score by win/loss(/tie)
- Predealt boards -> Score by VPs (or, if you would want to, raw IMPs or total points)

Of course, the VP scale is dampening the effect of playing different boards in the matches, compared to scoring by raw IMPs. But in Stefanie's view playing different boards and scoring by raw IMPs would be even worse.

FWIW, I agree with Stefanie. But my feelings are not as strong. I think that matches scored in VP should play the same boards. But I can understand that there are circumstances where that is not desirable. Matches may be played at different times. I also know a case of a bridge club that almost exclusively plays team games. At the time that I played there, they didn't want to use predealt hands (even though they had a duplicating machine in the building) because they wanted to minimize the risk of overhearing results, etc. from other tables.

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#25 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 07:07

View PostTrinidad, on 2012-March-29, 06:15, said:

I think she means:
- Hand dealt boards (and different in different matches) -> Score by win/loss(/tie)

We'll see when she replies, but I'd be a bit surprised if so, because that's not a method that's ever been used here and, although Stefanie is American, I don't think she's played much in the ACBL for a very long time.

Of course win/loss/tie has its own problems, which is presumably why the ACBL came over to VPs like the rest of us. Did that co-incide with them using pre-dealt boards, or did it pre-date them?
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#26 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 08:24

View Postgordontd, on 2012-March-29, 07:07, said:

We'll see when she replies, but I'd be a bit surprised if so, because that's not a method that's ever been used here and, although Stefanie is American, I don't think she's played much in the ACBL for a very long time.

Of course win/loss/tie has its own problems, which is presumably why the ACBL came over to VPs like the rest of us. Did that co-incide with them using pre-dealt boards, or did it pre-date them?

LOL.

I think the switch to VP's predated the switch to pre-dealt boards. I would say the massive switch to VPs took place around 1990 while the massive switch to predealt boards took place around 2025. ;)

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
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#27 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 17:14

View PostPhil, on 2012-March-22, 09:32, said:

For West Coast regionals, the directors enforce the clock. Much better than matchpoint events, oddly enough.

To save time, I will start making boards before the other pair arrives, and they are generally grateful. If someone objected, I would say no problem and start the process over.


This reminds me of the time I almost got ZT'd.

I was playing with some UofM buddies in a low-level KO. We were in the final. After the semis the other team asked us if we would be OK taking a short dinner and starting the finals about an hour early. "Sure, no problem."

So we're there an hour early and the other team doesn't show. We start to make the boards. They walk in like 10 minutes later and I said, "We made the boards, I hope that isn't a problem." "Actually yeah, could we remake them?" Okay, not a big deal. But I was just a little irked the guy asked us to play early then pulled this one. When we start making the hands again he says, "I've gotta go out for a smoke." So there we are again dealing the cards.

There were some other small things that happened that got my meter rising and finally on one hand my partner claims because his hand is good. It's so obvious his hand is good the 8-year-old caddie in the next room knows it's good. I pick up my cards (dummy) and put them back in the board. This guy asks to see my hand and I say "Why does it matter? His hand is good." Or something. I obviously shouldn't act like this but I'd had enough of the guy at the time. We have an exchange around "show me the hand"... "who cares!" for another minute then he says, "I'm sorry, I just under the impression that a defender was entitled to see dummy." and I say "No, I'm sorry, I was just under the impression that you knew how to play bridge."

Anyway we didn't start playing again until about 10 minutes after I said that and I had to talk to the director for a bit.
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#28 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 20:48

View Postbarmar, on 2012-March-28, 21:49, said:

We still use hand dealing in most team games in ACBL.


That is appalling. So no hand records either of course. What do you discuss over dinner?
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#29 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-March-30, 04:29

View Postthe hog, on 2012-March-29, 20:48, said:

That is appalling. So no hand records either of course. What do you discuss over dinner?

I expect they argue about what the hands were.
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#30 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-March-30, 05:56

The big advantage of hand-dealing is that it does not matter what you hear from the surrounding tables. In my limited experience there are quite a few loud players in the ACBL.

The lack of hand records frustrates one of my team enormously, as she'd prefer to go through every card. As the rest of us prefer drinking, this is another upside to hand-dealing.
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#31 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-March-30, 06:36

View Postthe hog, on 2012-March-29, 20:48, said:

That is appalling. So no hand records either of course. What do you discuss over dinner?


What do you mean? Now when you are complaining your partner was an idiot there can be no proof, so no reason for the argument to ever end?

FWIW, I have never played in a tournament that used hand dealt cards, and most of the club bridge I play is also computer dealt. Shows how young I am :P
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#32 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-March-30, 09:57

View Postpaulg, on 2012-March-30, 05:56, said:

The big advantage of hand-dealing is that it does not matter what you hear from the surrounding tables. In my limited experience there are quite a few loud players in the ACBL.

The lack of hand records frustrates one of my team enormously, as she'd prefer to go through every card. As the rest of us prefer drinking, this is another upside to hand-dealing.

I remember playing at a sectional at lake tahoe, we were stuck in a little room downstairs at a casino couple of boards into the final sessions, there was a constant echo of 7 bids :unsure:

Even in Sacramento when they used to have a barometer final that was a problem until they started using bidding boxes around 1990.
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#33 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-March-30, 10:23

View Postthe hog, on 2012-March-29, 20:48, said:

That is appalling. So no hand records either of course. What do you discuss over dinner?

In Swiss Teams, most of this discussion happens between rounds, after IMPing the boards (or for teams of LOLs, *while* IMPing -- which annoys me no end when I go to confirm the score and have to wait for them to finish scoring).

And we can usually remember the important details of the significant boards if we want to talk about them with others over dinner, but I can see how this would be a problem for novices.

#34 User is offline   daveharty 

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Posted 2012-March-30, 11:19

View Postpaulg, on 2012-March-30, 05:56, said:

The big advantage of hand-dealing is that it does not matter what you hear from the surrounding tables. In my limited experience there are quite a few loud players in the ACBL.

This is a significant consideration, IMO. In every regional or sectional team event that I've ever witnessed (all of which were hand-dealt), by the time the round is 35-40 minutes old, the early finishers are wandering freely among those tables still playing, and standing in pairs or small clusters of people discussing the round's points of interest, all within earshot of active tables. The directors will frequently make a plea for calm, but as they are engaged in the busiest part of the round dealing with incoming score reports, and as nobody has ever actually received a penalty for such behavior as far as I'm aware, such pleas are almost universally ignored; at best the chaos is momentarily reduced to a dull roar. I am (and most of my partners are) pretty fast at the table, but there have certainly been times, playing against slower opponents, that I was still at an active table during the hubbub, and it's definitely frustrating. Going to pre-duped hands would require a seismic cultural shift in the ACBL, including much stricter enforcement of regulations calling for peace and quiet in the playing area.
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#35 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-March-30, 16:41

View Postdaveharty, on 2012-March-30, 11:19, said:

Going to pre-duped hands would require a seismic cultural shift in the ACBL, including much stricter enforcement of regulations calling for peace and quiet in the playing area.


not only a seismic shift but a financial shift for the duplication fees and rentals of more sets of boards
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#36 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-31, 00:03

View Postpaulg, on 2012-March-30, 05:56, said:

The big advantage of hand-dealing is that it does not matter what you hear from the surrounding tables. In my limited experience there are quite a few loud players in the ACBL.


This is only an advantage for the directors who don't/won't/can't deal with loud, wandering players.


View Postdaveharty, on 2012-March-30, 11:19, said:

This is a significant consideration, IMO. In every regional or sectional team event that I've ever witnessed (all of which were hand-dealt), by the time the round is 35-40 minutes old, the early finishers are wandering freely among those tables still playing, and standing in pairs or small clusters of people discussing the round's points of interest, all within earshot of active tables. The directors will frequently make a plea for calm, but as they are engaged in the busiest part of the round dealing with incoming score reports, and as nobody has ever actually received a penalty for such behavior as far as I'm aware, such pleas are almost universally ignored; at best the chaos is momentarily reduced to a dull roar. I am (and most of my partners are) pretty fast at the table, but there have certainly been times, playing against slower opponents, that I was still at an active table during the hubbub, and it's definitely frustrating. Going to pre-duped hands would require a seismic cultural shift in the ACBL, including much stricter enforcement of regulations calling for peace and quiet in the playing area.

It is not stricter enforcement that is needed it is simply enforcement, presently very little is done.


View Postpigpenz, on 2012-March-30, 16:41, said:

not only a seismic shift but a financial shift for the duplication fees and rentals of more sets of boards


I don't understand how for example, New Zealand Bridge can offer teams events with duplicated boards, hand records US$3.20 for two 12-14 board matches.
US$40 for at least 96 boards in a biggish tournament, duplicated boards, hand records and a meal.

What does NZ Bridge have that the mightly ACBL doesn't have?
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#37 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-March-31, 09:39

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-31, 00:03, said:


What does NZ Bridge have that the mightly ACBL doesn't have?


Heck If I know, but before the advent of barcketed KO's every session
the teams events on sundays used to be pretty big events, thats alot of extra
money that usually the districts dont want to pay for....its not just the ACBL....
regionals and sectionals are usually subsidizied by the districts(regionals) or local units(sectionals).

Just watching the nationals last week they didnt evern duplicate till the round of 4.


So granted the ACBL is a giant fuzz ball in lots of cases they are just lending their name to the event, and
providing the sanctions and the directors.
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#38 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2012-March-31, 13:20

View Postpigpenz, on 2012-March-31, 09:39, said:

regionals and sectionals are usually subsidizied by the districts(regionals) or local units(sectionals).

In Unit 189 (Maine) and District 25 (New England), the sectionals and regionals stand on their own, break even for the year and subsidize other activities (In Maine, the annual meeting and state championship always run at a loss -- subsidized by the sectionals; and in New England GNT funds, NABC seed money, and newcomer programs are all paid for with earnings from regionals).
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#39 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-March-31, 19:13

View PostTimG, on 2012-March-31, 13:20, said:

In Unit 189 (Maine) and District 25 (New England), the sectionals and regionals stand on their own, break even for the year and subsidize other activities (In Maine, the annual meeting and state championship always run at a loss -- subsidized by the sectionals; and in New England GNT funds, NABC seed money, and newcomer programs are all paid for with earnings from regionals).

Yes I have seen local clubs not endorcse ACBL sanctioned events like GNT and Pairs, cause they feel all the money goes to professional players, even though we know thats not true.
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#40 User is offline   squealydan 

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Posted 2012-March-31, 19:13

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-31, 00:03, said:

I don't understand how for example, New Zealand Bridge can offer teams events with duplicated boards, hand records US$3.20 for two 12-14 board matches. US$40 for at least 96 boards in a biggish tournament, duplicated boards, hand records and a meal.

What does NZ Bridge have that the mightly ACBL doesn't have?


I think the main difference is that every club in NZ is a not-for-profit organisation, staffed almost entirely by volunteers.

Of course, in some ways having pre-dealt boards makes cheating easier. Our club's boards are usually dealt on the weekends - it would be nothing for me to wander in the day before my usual club night and take a copy of the hand-records home with me.
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