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1D:1S, 2C:2H Rebid on 1453

#1 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 23:07

Playing the trendy style where 1453 rebids 2C, what do you rebid over 4SF? I'm used to 3H showing 1444/0454 but bidding that on 1453 too can't be good. Maybe 2S as various with a stiff spade and 2NT as 2254?
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#2 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 23:19

You have dig your own grave by bidding a non existent suit in your "trendy style". Now you have to follow up with 3H and hope that partner does not take your club bid seriously. Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practise to deceive.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#3 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 00:18

I would bid 3H showing 4 hearts if I bid 2C with this shape. I mean, how else are we supposed to find a 4-4 heart fit? Yes, I'm sure playing artificial methods in this auction would be better, but playing standard methods I don't see how you can fail to bid 3H when you hold 4 hearts.
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#4 User is offline   Poky 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 01:00

View PostMickyB, on 2012-March-12, 23:07, said:

Playing the trendy style where 1453 rebids 2C, what do you rebid over 4SF? I'm used to 3H showing 1444/0454 but bidding that on 1453 too can't be good. Maybe 2S as various with a stiff spade and 2NT as 2254?


2 = doubleton spade
3 = three spades

With 1453 rebid 3 or 2NT, depending on suit quality.
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#5 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 02:49

Sorry for a non-helpful reply (I was helpful enough in our team match) but is this really trendy? I think it was something experts used to do about 10 years ago but then got tired of it, am I wrong about this?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#6 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 02:53

View Postgwnn, on 2012-March-13, 02:49, said:

Sorry for a non-helpful reply (I was helpful enough in our team match) but is this really trendy? I think it was something experts used to do about 10 years ago but then got tired of it, am I wrong about this?


England is 10 years behind on bidding theory imo :P
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#7 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 07:36

View Postthe hog, on 2012-March-12, 23:19, said:

You have dig your own grave by bidding a non existent suit in your "trendy style". Now you have to follow up with 3H and hope that partner does not take your club bid seriously. Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practise to deceive.

View Postgwnn, on 2012-March-13, 02:49, said:

Sorry for a non-helpful reply (I was helpful enough in our team match) but is this really trendy? I think it was something experts used to do about 10 years ago but then got tired of it, am I wrong about this?

Sorry, maybe I am also 10 years back in bidding theory.
So please enlighten me:
I would rebid 1NT if my hand fell into the agreed HCP range for rebidding 1NT (e.g. 12-14).
But what alternative suggests itself instead of 2C, if the hand is short of reversing values but falls into the range for opening 1NT? (e.g. 15-17)

Rainer Herrmann
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#8 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 07:51

Quote

But what alternative suggests itself instead of 2C, if the hand is short of reversing values but falls into the range for opening 1NT? (e.g. 15-17)


Here you get it wrong - there shouldn't be such hand. Ok, maybe some borderline 15hcp could qualify and maybe with some borderline 15 bidding 2C is the most +EV thing to do but with 16+ (or nice 15) you just reverse, wtp ?
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#9 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 08:04

View Postrhm, on 2012-March-13, 07:36, said:

Sorry, maybe I am also 10 years back in bidding theory.
So please enlighten me:
I would rebid 1NT if my hand fell into the agreed HCP range for rebidding 1NT (e.g. 12-14).
But what alternative suggests itself instead of 2C, if the hand is short of reversing values but falls into the range for opening 1NT? (e.g. 15-17)

Rainer Herrmann

Just to clarify my response, I wasn't judging the method itself (I think it is reasonable on some hands, but I have never done it myself yet). I was just saying that in my opinion it isn't really trendy to rebid 2 and was curious whether I'm wrong about this - MickyB plays on much higher levels than I do, I'm curious why he finds it is trendy. But since you asked, the alternatives are either a heavy 1NT, a rebid of 2 on a 5-card suit or a light 2 reverse.

Also I think some people rebid 2 automatically even on hands where you and I both rebid 1NT and they never rebid 1NT on a singleton. I personally think that is not a good idea, whether or not it is trendy.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#10 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 09:04

Meh, I had the impression that 1NT was losing ground to 2C as the rebid of choice here, helped by the increased popularity of responder's reverse flannery. It feels very right in TriBal where 1D:1M, 1NT can still be two diamonds and responder will usually rebid 2M with five. Also, we bid 1C:1H!, 1S! [1H = spades, 1S = clubs+diamonds unbal] with 1435 so we are in a similar position over 4SF on that auction.

I've never seen anyone English rebid 2 other than myself or my partners so ten years is a conservative estimate IMO
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#11 User is online   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 09:51

View PostMickyB, on 2012-March-13, 09:04, said:

Meh, I had the impression that 1NT was losing ground to 2C as the rebid of choice here, helped by the increased popularity of responder's reverse flannery. It feels very right in TriBal where 1D:1M, 1NT can still be two diamonds and responder will usually rebid 2M with five. Also, we bid 1C:1H!, 1S! [1H = spades, 1S = clubs+diamonds unbal] with 1435 so we are in a similar position over 4SF on that auction.

I've never seen anyone English rebid 2 other than myself or my partners so ten years is a conservative estimate IMO

My impression is that in America people have moved from rebidding 2 to rebidding 1NT, and in England people have moved from rebidding 2 to rebidding 1NT. Perhaps you and your friends are trend-setters rather than merely being trendy?
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#12 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 10:11

View PostMickyB, on 2012-March-12, 23:07, said:

Playing the trendy style where 1453 rebids 2C

I thought the trendy style is to rebid 2 showing five diamonds and four hearts.
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#13 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 11:58

Assuming our 4sf is also GF

I dont see the downside of bidding

2n.

If p is interested in hearts they can bid 3h.
P will know from the original 2c rebid followed
by 2n that you have a max of 2s and are a huge
favorite to be short in spades.
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#14 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 12:29

Heh! So, am I "trendy" now?


http://www.bridgeguy...eichenbaum.html
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#15 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 14:21

View PostMickyB, on 2012-March-13, 09:04, said:

Meh, I had the impression that 1NT was losing ground to 2C as the rebid of choice here, helped by the increased popularity of responder's reverse flannery. It feels very right in TriBal where 1D:1M, 1NT can still be two diamonds and responder will usually rebid 2M with five. Also, we bid 1C:1H!, 1S! [1H = spades, 1S = clubs+diamonds unbal] with 1435 so we are in a similar position over 4SF on that auction.

I've never seen anyone English rebid 2 other than myself or my partners so ten years is a conservative estimate IMO


I could be wrong, but in the MSCs when I started playing, 2C was the normal bid with 1453, and then this moved to 1N. And before that it was probably 2D. I remember a thread a long time ago where I argued for 2C>2D with some good players (maybe gnasher?). I am still a 1N bidder if I am in range, but I agree playing reverse flannery one should bid 2C. I am not sure how popular reverse flannery is, I did not know it had become more than a fringe thing to play.
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#16 User is online   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 14:48

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-March-13, 14:21, said:

I remember a thread a long time ago where I argued for 2C>2D with some good players (maybe gnasher?).

Yes, I remember it too. Your arguments must have been quite persuasive, because I've stopped rebidding 2 on those hands.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#17 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 17:04

http://www.bridgebas...tion-problem-21 and references therein. I miss 655321...

(sorry MickyB, this still doesn't really address your question at all!)
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#18 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 17:28

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-March-13, 00:18, said:

I would bid 3H showing 4 hearts if I bid 2C with this shape. I mean, how else are we supposed to find a 4-4 heart fit?


How about this?

If we routinely rebid 2S on 2254, then 2NT would promise three hearts [1444, 1435, 1345 and 0454 being the relevant shapes - although one of these should probably still bid 3H over 2H]. Now, responder can bid

1D:1S
2C:2H
2N:3H

as natural 5-4. With 5-5, he can insist on playing in hearts.
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#19 User is online   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 17:50

View Postgwnn, on 2012-March-13, 17:04, said:

(sorry MickyB, this still doesn't really address your question at all!)


But it does tell us something about how MickyB's views have changed over the years:

http://www.bridgebas...post__p__314363
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#20 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 19:16

View PostMickyB, on 2012-March-12, 23:07, said:

Playing the trendy style where 1453 rebids 2C, what do you rebid over 4SF? I'm used to 3H showing 1444/0454 but bidding that on 1453 too can't be good. Maybe 2S as various with a stiff spade and 2NT as 2254?




over 2h fsf I would bid 3h

I would tend to rebid 1nt with 11-13 but rebid 2c with 14+. So with 1453 and roughly 14-16 I would rebid 2c. I suppose there may even be a few rare hands where I might rebid 2d with solid d.
Playing reverse flannery may help on a few hands.
I would tend to open a nt with 14-16 and my stiff spade was A,K, or Q.
With stronger I can reverse.



so 1453.....1d and rebid 2c becomes rather limited and rarer.


J...Kxxx....AKxxx...Axx
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