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Tell me what you know ...about opener's hand

#1 User is offline   bd71 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 21:24



Standard 2/1. Better minor.

Tell me everything you think you know about opener's hand here...in particular what is minimum strength and possible distributions.

Does your answer change for matchpoints vs. teams?
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#2 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 23:19

for me:


not strong 2c
not 18-19 bal or off shape
not 14-16 bal or offshape roughly


pard has short spades...and at least 4d. pard has more than minimum.


could be....1=4=5=3 and 14-20 roughly? tell me my hand may limit pards a bit more....and if opp bid before I do,
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#3 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 23:26

My short answer is that you should have some hope of making 3 something if you X here. Doubling too light has a very little benefits since 2S is not going to be down often. IMO people tend to double slightly too light here.

x
AQx
Axxxx
KJxx
is the minimum i would double with. I hope to find partner with something like Kxxxx of H or Axxxx of clubs.
Wank comments on a ATB

"obviously north miscounted his cards and his points, whereas south only miscounted his cards"
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#4 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 23:31

one of two hands...

HAND ONE... short spades, four good hearts, six of more strong diamonds
HAND TWO... short spades, four hearts, 4/5 diamonds, 4 clubs (could be 1=4=5=3 as well)

In both cases, a good hand, obviously not good enough to cue-bid 2 or to open 2. So think 15+ with the shape shown. It is important to have hearts, else you will have to correct to a higher level. Not so important to have clubs, because with a strong diamond suit, you can correct clubs back to diamonds at whatever level your partner responds. (with 15, good spots, spade void).

The question is how much stronger is a 2 cue-bid (instead of the double) and does the cue-bid promise hearts. I think the cue-bid should be used for strong hands without hearts, but I am not certain what a good standard agreement is here.
--Ben--

#5 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 23:33

View Postmike777, on 2012-March-11, 23:19, said:

for me:


not strong 2c
not 18-19 bal or off shape
not 14-16 bal or offshape roughly


pard has short spades...and at least 4d. pard has more than minimum.


could be....1=4=5=3 and 14-20 roughly? tell me my hand may limit pards a bit more....and if opp bid before I do,

Yep...point count aside, let's say it is a damn good 4+ one diamond opening and intended as takeout of 1S.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#6 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 01:23

I don't think partner would ever double with a 14 count unless it had a spade void. If he had a stiff spade I would expect at least about 16. With 5440 he could double with less. Bidding freely when your partner passes the opening bid shows a strong hand, a spade void is obviously strong and so are things like 7 card suits but with more normal shape you definitely need a lot of points.
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#7 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 01:26

There's also 18-19 bal with two low spades, or it just goes without saying?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#8 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 01:30

Yes, I would double with that, I was just trying to make the point that I think peoples lower range is too low in general (eg I think it is awful to double with x AQx Axxxx KJxx but obviously that's just my opinion).
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#9 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 01:47

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-March-12, 01:30, said:

Yes, I would double with that, I was just trying to make the point that I think peoples lower range is too low in general (eg I think it is awful to double with x AQx Axxxx KJxx but obviously that's just my opinion).

How about if the rounded's were reversed (per Ben, above)? Trying for a line of demarkation here, not debating.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#10 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 08:18

To my defense i think we pass many hands that Justin will respond routinely. Also red at MP i wouldnt X with the hand ive posted (-200/-500 to likely)


xxxx
KJxxx
x
xxx

xxxx
xxx
x
Axxxx

with these hands you have hope to make 3 something or at least some hope of putting 3S down. These 3-5 pts hands with a 5 card suit are very frequent and these are the hands you aim at when you X.
Wank comments on a ATB

"obviously north miscounted his cards and his points, whereas south only miscounted his cards"
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#11 User is offline   bd71 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 08:48

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-March-12, 01:30, said:

Yes, I would double with that, I was just trying to make the point that I think peoples lower range is too low in general (eg I think it is awful to double with x AQx Axxxx KJxx but obviously that's just my opinion).


Does this change if it's matchpoints? Would you think that this hand (or other "max pass" hand at IMPs) are worth a double at pairs?
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#12 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 19:20

Agree doubler must have significant extra strength. It's not the same as if East overcalled 1 and it was passed round, because responder still has another bid and can protect, and was not inhibited from bidding in the first instance.
A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem – Albert Einstein
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#13 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 20:44

View Postbd71, on 2012-March-12, 08:48, said:

Does this change if it's matchpoints? Would you think that this hand (or other "max pass" hand at IMPs) are worth a double at pairs?


Doesn't change very much to me.

Quote

How about if the rounded's were reversed (per Ben, above)? Trying for a line of demarkation here, not debating.


Would still pass. I know I am very conservative vs the rest of the world in this spot, but I still don't see the point of bidding with a hand like that. It's not our hand.

Quote

To my defense i think we pass many hands that Justin will respond routinely


Yes, your style for passing definitely matters. I would indeed not pass either of the hands you posted.
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