[bd71]

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Standard 2/1. Better minor.

Tell me everything you think you know about opener's hand here...in particular what is minimum strength and possible distributions.

Does your answer change for matchpoints vs. teams?

[mike777]

for me:


not strong 2c
not 18-19 bal or off shape
not 14-16 bal or offshape roughly


pard has short spades...and at least 4d. pard has more than minimum.


could be....1=4=5=3 and 14-20 roughly? tell me my hand may limit pards a bit more....and if opp bid before I do,

[benlessard]

My short answer is that you should have some hope of making 3 something if you X here. Doubling too light has a very little benefits since 2S is not going to be down often. IMO people tend to double slightly too light here.

x
AQx
Axxxx
KJxx
is the minimum i would double with. I hope to find partner with something like Kxxxx of H or Axxxx of clubs.

[inquiry]

one of two hands...

HAND ONE... short spades, four good hearts, six of more strong diamonds
HAND TWO... short spades, four hearts, 4/5 diamonds, 4 clubs (could be 1=4=5=3 as well)

In both cases, a good hand, obviously not good enough to cue-bid 2♠ or to open 2♣. So think 15+ with the shape shown. It is important to have hearts, else you will have to correct to a higher level. Not so important to have clubs, because with a strong diamond suit, you can correct clubs back to diamonds at whatever level your partner responds. (with 15, good spots, spade void).

The question is how much stronger is a 2♠ cue-bid (instead of the double) and does the cue-bid promise hearts. I think the cue-bid should be used for strong hands without hearts, but I am not certain what a good standard agreement is here.

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2012-March-11, 23:19, said:

for me:


not strong 2c
not 18-19 bal or off shape
not 14-16 bal or offshape roughly


pard has short spades...and at least 4d. pard has more than minimum.


could be....1=4=5=3 and 14-20 roughly? tell me my hand may limit pards a bit more....and if opp bid before I do,

Yep...point count aside, let's say it is a damn good 4+ one diamond opening and intended as takeout of 1S.

[JLOGIC]

I don't think partner would ever double with a 14 count unless it had a spade void. If he had a stiff spade I would expect at least about 16. With 5440 he could double with less. Bidding freely when your partner passes the opening bid shows a strong hand, a spade void is obviously strong and so are things like 7 card suits but with more normal shape you definitely need a lot of points.

[gwnn]

There's also 18-19 bal with two low spades, or it just goes without saying?

[JLOGIC]

Yes, I would double with that, I was just trying to make the point that I think peoples lower range is too low in general (eg I think it is awful to double with x AQx Axxxx KJxx but obviously that's just my opinion).

[aguahombre]

JLOGIC, on 2012-March-12, 01:30, said:

Yes, I would double with that, I was just trying to make the point that I think peoples lower range is too low in general (eg I think it is awful to double with x AQx Axxxx KJxx but obviously that's just my opinion).

How about if the rounded's were reversed (per Ben, above)? Trying for a line of demarkation here, not debating.

[benlessard]

To my defense i think we pass many hands that Justin will respond routinely. Also red at MP i wouldnt X with the hand ive posted (-200/-500 to likely)


xxxx
KJxxx
x
xxx

xxxx
xxx
x
Axxxx

with these hands you have hope to make 3 something or at least some hope of putting 3S down. These 3-5 pts hands with a 5 card suit are very frequent and these are the hands you aim at when you X.

[bd71]

JLOGIC, on 2012-March-12, 01:30, said:

Yes, I would double with that, I was just trying to make the point that I think peoples lower range is too low in general (eg I think it is awful to double with x AQx Axxxx KJxx but obviously that's just my opinion).

Does this change if it's matchpoints? Would you think that this hand (or other "max pass" hand at IMPs) are worth a double at pairs?

[Statto]

Agree doubler must have significant extra strength. It's not the same as if East overcalled 1♠ and it was passed round, because responder still has another bid and can protect, and was not inhibited from bidding in the first instance.

[JLOGIC]

bd71, on 2012-March-12, 08:48, said:

Does this change if it's matchpoints? Would you think that this hand (or other "max pass" hand at IMPs) are worth a double at pairs?

Doesn't change very much to me.

Quote

How about if the rounded's were reversed (per Ben, above)? Trying for a line of demarkation here, not debating.

Would still pass. I know I am very conservative vs the rest of the world in this spot, but I still don't see the point of bidding with a hand like that. It's not our hand.

Quote

To my defense i think we pass many hands that Justin will respond routinely

Yes, your style for passing definitely matters. I would indeed not pass either of the hands you posted.