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Multi 2D

#1 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-October-29, 23:40

I play multi 2D which is either weak major or 20-22 bal, or strong in a suit (usually 8 tricks hand)
I am thinking that after this 2D its better to narow responder's bids to 2H/2S/2NT only, and not bid pemptive like 3H or even 4X. When responder is thinking of premptive and the defenders are quite there is a good chance that opener will have the strong version. am i right ?
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#2 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2004-October-30, 01:49

A good test is to consider what the opposition would like ...

As an opponent I'd be very happy if people take this approach because it will make my life a lot easier. Decisions after 2-Pass-3 are always more difficult and often scary.

So I'd recommend keeping the preemptive options in your system.

Cheers

Paul
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#3 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2004-October-30, 23:07

Lets say that the weak meaning is at least 90% of your multi openings. Lets say that the inference you can draw from you weakness and RHO's pass is that partner is more likely to be strong. It is still probably against the odds.

And you can't draw any inferences from RHO's pass--he might have a battleship without the right shape for immediate action. If has diamond length, he is certain to get another chance--so he can pass. Also LHO might hold a battleship. Preempting is right in both of these cases and only wrong when partner is strong. But 2D-(p)-3H for example doesn't lead to loss in all cases where partner is strong, only in some cases.

It must be right to preempt on any hand where you would do so if you were playing mini-multi (where only the weak meaning is possible).

As an aside, I really love Ben's prefered method of only factoring the minor suit Acol twos into multi and handling the major suit Acol twos via 2C with passable paradox responses in the majors. This method even further reduces the loss on multis with strong hands when partner preempts (fewer hand types=easier to resolve), without inducing much if any loss into 2C. After all, a lot of us open major suit Acol twos with 2C even though we can't get out below the three level.
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#4 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2004-October-31, 06:44

mikestar, on Oct 31 2004, 05:07 AM, said:

As an aside, I really love Ben's prefered method of only factoring the minor suit Acol twos into multi and handling the major suit Acol twos via 2C with passable paradox responses in the majors.

Yes, this is almost standard in the "italian 5 card major" (played by most italians on BBO):

2D is multi = eithr weak 2 M or strom m opener

Then, there are 2 schools of thoughts for 2M openers according to style:

1) play them as weak 2suiters. This is more preemptive to opps.

OR

2) play them as natural 4 losers hands, nso that 1M opener is limited to about max 17/18 hcp.
This proitects more the 1M opener from preemption, and resolves better the 2C opener.
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Posted 2004-October-31, 07:57

I've played multi for a long time now, and I never had any problems after preemptive bidding. However, I play the strong version as GF one-suiter. So if partner preempts, we can still bid our strong hand without any problems. Theoreticly we might have problems in some cases, but it never came up so far...
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Posted 2004-October-31, 09:44

I have played multi-2 for a lot of years, and with a lot of different combinations of strong hands. Mikestar correctly identified what i play now, and the advantages of this approach. This comes from Chris Ryall's webpage.... see

http://www.cavendish...wo/diamonds.htm

If you play multi, it would be well worth it to take a look of Chris's methods and compare with your own.

ben
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2004-November-01, 02:08

If this is really a problem (depends how often the strong variants occur: I made some simulations that suggested less than 2% of first-seat multi-openings), I would prefer to drop the strong variants. Loosing the preemptive raise of multi is too big a price for being able to distsnguish between GF and SEMI-GF minor suit openings.
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Posted 2004-November-01, 06:26

helene_t, on Nov 1 2004, 04:08 AM, said:

I would prefer to drop the strong variants. Loosing the preemptive raise of multi is too big a price for being able to distsnguish between GF and SEMI-GF minor suit openings.

Thiis is a major point, and a reason I prefer the vesion of multi that I play. A couple of key points in the responses...

1) A jump to 4H or 4S is to play (this is my suit), not pass or correct
2) A jump to 3H/3S is pass correct, as is 2H/2S
3) A jump to 3NT shows 4-4 in the majors (preempt), but allows partner with the huge balanced hand (mine is the strong version balance hand, 22-24) can pass
4) A jump to 4C or 4D shows 5-4 in the majors, 4C shows 5H's, 4D shows 5S, wihich works out well opposite the 22-24 hand.
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#9 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2004-November-01, 06:32

inquiry, on Nov 1 2004, 12:26 PM, said:

helene_t, on Nov 1 2004, 04:08 AM, said:

I would prefer to drop the strong variants. Loosing the preemptive raise of multi is too big a price for being able to distsnguish between GF and SEMI-GF minor suit openings.

Thiis is a major point, and a reason I prefer the vesion of multi that I play. A couple of key points in the responses...

1) A jump to 4H or 4S is to play (this is my suit), not pass or correct
2) A jump to 3H/3S is pass correct, as is 2H/2S
3) A jump to 3NT shows 4-4 in the majors (preempt), but allows partner with the huge balanced hand (mine is the strong version balance hand, 22-24) can pass
4) A jump to 4C or 4D shows 5-4 in the majors, 4C shows 5H's, 4D shows 5S, wihich works out well opposite the 22-24 hand.

Especially NV against V, you may wish to consider playing eg 3 as Pass, but correct if doubled. This sort of thing really puts the opposition's methods to the test.

Eric
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Posted 2004-November-01, 07:38

Yes, it is well known that not vul versus vul, that

2D-P-2H-P
P <<----- might be done with spades and short hearts

2D-P-2S-P
P <------- might be done with hearst and short spades,

Etc....

This evil bidding does, in fact, put rrememdonus pressure on the opponents to get it right.
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#11 User is offline   NickToll 

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Posted 2005-January-07, 09:40

If the problem is how to bid preemptively while avoiding to create problems to a strong partner, some results might be reached including only a balanced hand in 2 as a strong option (let's say 21-23) and allowing only 6-card suits when weak (5card weak2 could be opened 2). In this scenario, while a 2NT response is the usual positive relay (at least a game invitation opposite a weak2), a 3 response is weaker than 2NT but guarantees game values opposite a strong balanced hand (that is, at least a few points), showing:
- 3: 4-4 or more in the majors;
- 3: 3-3 in the majors;
- 3: 3-4 in the majors, bid the 3card suit.
If opener is weak, he will bid 3 or 4 depending on the known fit; if he is strong, he will be able to bid 3NT (no major fit) or 4 (heart fit) or 4 (spade fit), or 3 over 3 to find out if partner has a 5card major.

An indirect benefit is in 2 - 2 (pass or correct) - 2NT, where any progressive move by responder shows not more than a doubleton in his first bid suit: this helps to design a scheme including singleton-showing and fit-searching bids.

I haven't a lot of experience with this development, but it seems very interesting to me. Andrea Buratti and Massimo Lanzarotti, one of the top Italian pairs, play similar responses in their system called Nightmare (for opponents, we used to say in Italy), where 2 is a bad weak2 or a strong balanced without 5card majors.

Your opinion?
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#12 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-January-07, 11:52

seems like you are giving away alot of info to the opps (and room) when you should just be preempting. Catering to a possibility that is 5 % likelihood when you open a bid seems silly, but so does ignoring it.

Ben: what would you bid over 2D, say white/red with Kxxx Kxxx x xxxx??

It seems better to just ditch the strong options, or better yet not play multi B)
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#13 User is offline   Yzerman 

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Posted 2005-January-07, 13:22

I used to not believe in the value of Multi preempts, however I have changed my mind over the course of time for a variety of reasons, of which those reasons will answer the question of keeping preemptive options open.

1 - The value LOTT preempts are incredibly effective (all levels of pass/correct)

2 - The value of playing hands from either hand is valuable

3 - The added value of 2H/2S preempts create options you would not have otherwise

From experience, here is what I believe are the prerequisites to playing multi and achieving favorable results;

1 - DISCUSS IN DEPTH, all auctions and all options with your partner.

2 - Have a consistent and mutually cohesive plan as to the nature of how you preempt.

3 - Have solid agreements as to how to handle interference (this is HUGE, occasionally you are blasted out of auction without disclosure of what suit multi hand holds)

Here are some of my personal rules that I like to exercise

1 - As a general rule, a 2D multi preempt is the same preempt as you would normally open 2H or 2S, just because you have gadget to confuse people DONT use 2D without discipline.

2 - A preempt is a preempt. I request of my partner that 3 side controls I prefer NOT be preempt (Ace+singleton, King+void, A+King and K+K although 2 controls I still dont preempt). If you exercise this rule, judging game and slam bidding is much more simplistic.

3 - As another general rule, I try to not preempt when => 50% of my points are NOT in the preempted suit. As mention earlier, a preempt is a preempt 2H means I have hearts not side kings and queens galore.

With respect to the question of utilizing the full set of preemptive bids (Pass/Correct options), I believe that is you do NOT utlilize the preemptive options than you are avoiding one of the greatest benefits of playing multi preempts. Hence, my personal preference is to compliment multi preempts with as many preemptive options as possible (applying LOTT rules) and making sure that partner and I are on the same page!!!!

MAL
MAL
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