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What would be better bidding for these boards

#1 User is offline   Curls77 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 09:41

Hi everyone. I'd apreciate your comments/advice in bidding couple of hands. You have known partner, yet still in phase of making agreemenets within SAYC.

It was an IMP table, against known (and better) opponents. You are East.

Board 1

a) Should East make off-shape TO double, or 1NT overcall without stopper, or as I decided to do - make 4card overcall?
b) in case 2D was ok, could West choose 2N to show spade stopper, or 2S to force auction to learn more of East hand rather than raising dimes?

Board 2

2N was alerted as preempted clubs.
In east seat i decided to overcall instead of X because i didnt have hearts; assuming 3D overcall was ok (was it?), what values should West have for free bid after X, and is 3H from him forcing being answer to double? Even if this auction was wrong, once 3s was bid, should West pass, or correct to 4h?

Board 3

a) Was East strong enough to make strong jump shift and bid 3D? How should auction look from there on?
b) If 2D was correct call, should west bid 2h over 2d that would eventualy lead us to 3N?

Thank you all : )
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#2 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 10:53

I reckon, not being an expert

Board 1:

1A) Bid 1NT without a stopper.
1B) N/A

Board 2:

I suggest a better defence to transfer pre-empts and the like. Just something generic like bidding the anchor suit is takeout, and the direct double shows a good balanced hand. Not directly useful here but means you know what's up if east passes then doubles (doesn't have the shape for either a direct double or cuebid).

Board 3:

Yes, definitely. You could bid 2D there with an ace AND queen less, so you need to get all your extra strength in the picture. That has to be forcing, so west can show his heart fragment and 3NT is easily found.
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#3 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 10:54

Board 1:
1NT overcall ( "Stoppers are for losers" -- Ken Rexford )

Board 2:
That 2NT! is an effective preempt here.
Looks like E/W were lucky to get out at 3S, although isn't 3S forcing here?

Board 3:
East is a tad shy for a GF 3D SJS.
And I can't fault West for passing 2D.
Don Stenmark
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#4 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 11:04

View PostCurls77, on 2012-March-03, 09:41, said:

Hi everyone. I'd apreciate your comments/advice in bidding couple of hands. You have known partner, yet still in phase of making agreemenets within SAYC.

It was an IMP table, against known (and better) opponents. You are East.

Board 1

a) Should East make off-shape TO double, or 1NT overcall without stopper, or as I decided to do - make 4card overcall?
b) in case 2D was ok, could West choose 2N to show spade stopper, or 2S to force auction to learn more of East hand rather than raising dimes?


Wow. 2 is quite a call on Kxxx.

The "book" call is pass, but I can understand wanting to get into the auction. If I would do anything other than pass, it would be double. 1NT with only 15 HCP and no real spade stopper is not a consideration.

West has a huge hand opposite a 2 call. I would bid 2 After that, East could bid 3 as a NT probe and West could bid 3NT. Note that I use the word "could." None of this is a sure thing.

View PostCurls77, on 2012-March-03, 09:41, said:

Board 2

2N was alerted as preempted clubs.
In east seat i decided to overcall instead of X because i didnt have hearts; assuming 3D overcall was ok (was it?), what values should West have for free bid after X, and is 3H from him forcing being answer to double? Even if this auction was wrong, once 3s was bid, should West pass, or correct to 4h?


The 3 call is an overbid, and it set the stage for the rest of the auction. In my opinion, one should have an above-average opening call for a direct action over a preempt. This hand is a normal average opening bid. I would pass over 2NT. I am sure that other posters will say that the 3 call is fine, but to me it is light. Double over 2NT is not a consideration with a singleton heart.

Over South's double, the values shown by West's 3 call are undefined. He could be running from 3x, or he could have a real 3 call. In this case, he has a REAL 3 call. I would bid 4, counting on partner for a good hand for his direct action over the preempt. I don't let the opponent's double talk me out of what I think is a normal action.

After the 3 call, East should pass. No one has doubled yet. 3 is a bigger overbid than 3 was, but it might work out.

View PostCurls77, on 2012-March-03, 09:41, said:

Board 3

a) Was East strong enough to make strong jump shift and bid 3D? How should auction look from there on?
b) If 2D was correct call, should west bid 2h over 2d that would eventualy lead us to 3N?


East's hand is very good. Some might rebid 3, and some might bid as you did - only 2. It is really right on the borderline.

It would be nice to reach 5 on these cards (even 6 has some play). But 3NT has very little play, and it might be reached after a 3 call. So, playing this hand in what appears to be a wimpy 2 contract might not be a disaster. You will probably beat the pairs that get to a notrump game (or partial).
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#5 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 13:52

#1 Pass, sometimes you dont have a bid.
I you dont want to pass make the T/O.
A overcall showes a 5 card suit.
#2 3D is ok, 3H is NF, most likely West should just bid 4H.
#3 No, was 2D was ok, partner should show the fit, he already
limited his hand, the fit improved his hand.

Wth kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#6 User is offline   Flameous 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 14:36

1) Never ever overcall 4 card suits on 2 lvl. X > 1NT > P >>> 2
Game should be found though, 3 is some what a courtesy raise here that could be made with about ace less, this seems more like 2.

2) You are in a tight spot here, I'd probably overcall 3 due the good suit but it's borderline. There are some jokers with doubles after partner pre-empts, but I prefer to take them for real. Thus for me 3 wouldn't be forcing here. If it is forcing, then it has to be game forcing, meaning that stopping in 3 was weird. I don't think 3 shows extra values in that case.

3) Without tools to split point ranges better, these borderline hands are a problem. I think this is a 2 bid but I know many jump with every 17 count they get their hands on. With W I'd raise to 3 without a second thought, there's even always a fit which wouldn't be true with forcing NT.
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#7 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 15:10

1. Hand pass is close to wtp, X is okay, anything else is retarded. Do not bid 1 NT without a stopper after they opened a 5 card major. 3 Diamond was a big underbid. I mean, partner bids a suit missing all my diamond honors. He must have a really really strong hand- or no clue about the bidding. I always (sometimes wrongly) assume, that my partner has a clue, so any non game forcing bid is just bad.

2. Hand I dislike your 3 bid, but maybe this will work well, lets call it borderline and a good lead director. 3 was fine and forcing- I do not understand the majority who wants this to be nonforcing. Do they all bid 4 first to creqat a force and start bdding suits at the 4. level? Sounds bad to me.
3 was okay, passing this was stupid. Partner made some noise and I have a suit which is playable opposite a chicane. 4 is it. This will not make, but this is because you have very few values for your 3 bid.

3. I liked your bidding and you had been in a nice spot. Sometimes 3 Nt/5minor makes and you do not bid it, so what? And anyway, I had not liked to be in 3 NT with your hands.
Kind Regards

Roland


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#8 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 18:27

On board 1 2D is a terrible bid. 1NT is not much better. Why do you think you have to bid on this? Pass is the only call. Beginning players really need to learn to pass. Your partner's 3d raise was a huge underbid.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#9 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 18:52

1) noone should ever overcall a 4 card suit at the 2 level. i suggest you never overcall a 4 card suit at any level until you've been playing for a few years. as to what you should do, X or pass are both OK - for a beginner I would strongly reccommend passing hands like this with length in their suit and no stop. 1NT without a stop would be ridiculous - RHO has shown 5 spades and will attract the lead through partner's spade holding.

Given your overcall, you partner's 3 showed a much weaker hand - roughly something like a 6 or 7 count with 3 diamonds. He should bid the opponents suit to show a strong raise.
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#10 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 19:07

On board 2 your D overcall is also poor. You need to be aware that there is a pass card, which you need to use more. After 3D, 3H is forcing of course, so now you will end up in a no play 4H contract because of your under strength overcall.
As an aside, i agree with Roland; how can 3H be non forcing? This is unplayable. Do you intend to start your suit investigation with a 4C bid?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#11 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 21:13

My opinion may differ from others here.

Hand 1) This isn't really a good 15 count and you're vulnerable and 1NT overcalls are easy to whack and you don't stop the 5 card suit. 1NT is out of the running as a candidate. But overcalling 2 on a garbage 4 card suit is a NPAB (New Partner Asking Bid) it is so bad. So you're left with pass, and X. I used to pass, but I think QJx in is OK and I see so many modern players who don't pass 15 counts even a bad one like this (for suit play) that I now double these. After 2 advancer has to do much more than a simple raise..ie cue bid or more. After X. advancer jumps to 3 and you can bid 3 and you should then play 3NT.

Hand 2) What would passing now vs this transfer preempt and then bidding 3 show? I think it might show this, since clearly PD has something in that sequence or the opps would be at least for game. I don't hate the direct 3 but think 3 after the opps X 3 is poor. Since, to me 3 shows a better hand than east holds, west should then try 4 for game with that suit.

Hand 3) East is a near max for 2 but 100% blame to west for not raising with his 4 cards support and non min. Especially bad to not raise if not playing 1NT forcing since 2 should be 4 cards. Or west can bid 2 if it is taken as a try for 3NT and with tolerance for east to rebid a pointed suit with a min (if that is your agreement) but anyhow west has too much to pass.

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..
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#12 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-March-04, 06:35

1) This is really an automatic double. Welcome to the "modern" game. Sure, you don't have spade shortness, but you have support for any suit partner bids, and your hand is simply too good to pass. With a 4333 12 count I would advocate a pass to a beginner, but with 14+ I would advocate a double unless your values are all in their suits, which they are not. You have to get in there with this good of a hand, as you knew when you bid 2D, however 2D on a 4 card suit is never right. Think about it this way, if you double and partner bids a suit, isn't it more likely you have a better fit their than in diamonds? Partner will bid a 4 card suit so you have at least 7, and will often have a 5+ card suit giving you an 8 card fit. On the other hand partner might pass 2D with 0, 1, or 2 diamonds. Double is a much better call, and pass is quite bad imo.

2) Your club holding and general lack of values is a warning sign. Start with pass. Luckily they play transfer preempts so maybe you will get to balance over 3C suggesting a hand not quite good enough to overcall to begin with. A new suit at the 3 level is forcing, so 3S was fine. Partner should correct to hearts as his suit is playable opposite even a void, and he knows spades is a 4-3 fit (with 5 spades you'd show them to begin with).

3) Your auction was fine, you are both max. Since partner might reply with 6, you need 18 at least to jump shift (game forcing). West might raise light to cater to a 16 or 17 count, but with a stiff in partner's suit and only 8 points and 4 diamonds, pass is best, partner might have only 12, 13, or 14, and even with a max game might not be on since his honors are poorly located. This kind of hand is a common theme in standard bidding, and is why many adopt artificial methods to deal with it. If you jumpshift, you may hit partner with a misfitting min and be too high. If you raise to 3D, you may hit partner with 12 or see him bid with 15 and be too high. Oh well.
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#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 04:05

1a. It is pretty much never correct to make a 4 card overcall at the 2 level without some special agreements. I think your best call with this hand is simply to pass. Double is also possible if you play a "modern" style.
1b. I would respond 2 as West showing a good hand with diamond support.

2. I agree with Roland on this 100%. I would put this down to unfamiliarity with transfer preempts (not realising that you can pass and back in) along with West having a brain freeze on the second round. As an aside, transfer preempts are quite a mean thing to play against beginners!

3. 2 is absolutely the right bid with the East hand. The West hand is a bit of a problem; either pass or 3 might be right. There are some (advanced) methods you can play to help with these hands but 2 is really not so bad. If this would be the worst contract you end up in you are playing well.
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#14 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 06:57

To all who state that 3 on hand #2 is forcing, did you notice that the 3 call was doubled? That changes things.
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#15 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 07:24

View PostArtK78, on 2012-March-05, 06:57, said:

To all who state that 3 on hand #2 is forcing, did you notice that the 3 call was doubled? That changes things.


You are right...didn't notice, now 3H is just running.
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#16 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 08:26

View PostArtK78, on 2012-March-05, 06:57, said:

To all who state that 3 on hand #2 is forcing, did you notice that the 3 call was doubled? That changes things.


No, I did not, thank you for mention it.

So it is just running and 3 was a typical beginner bid: Partner runs from my longest suit and I have no support, so I try my second suit. But this is wrong. Partner did see your 3 bid and he did see the double. You promised zero hearts, so you do not need to run away from 3 .
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#17 User is offline   Curls77 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 08:28

Thank you all for all those (different) answers and opinions ;)
I do now see how and why X would be right choice on the first board, and I don't feel too big a chicken for 2D bid on the last.

But, I still do not understand fully the second board.. Lets assume they did open directly 3c, so I couldn't pass and eventually balance later after the transfer done with 3D (which never crossed my mind - lack of experience).
So if it goes:
(3) 3 (X) 3
partner can choose to pass, raise D, bid 3N, redouble or freely bid new suit. This latest action, him being unlimited hand, seems so very forcing to me, how it is not?
And what would his pass / raise / new suit mean if there was no double?

Thanks for your help!
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#18 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 09:16

He could XX and bid 4 with a forcing hand.

The difference is:
In scenario 1 (without the double) it is quite likely that you belong in game, sometimes in slam. As you already have limit space avaiable, you cannot afford to jump around or cuebid with any hand which want to force. So, new suits are surely forcing.

In scenario two, with the double: There are still games sometimes even slams possible. But they are not very likely. But the likelihood that you need to run from a doubled contract increased. So you better play new suits as non forcing here. Of course non forcing is not a command, it is just a strong signal. Very rarely, with very extreme hands, you may raise or bid another suit. Your example hand is far away from both of these criterions. But make it Kx,AKx,AJxxxx,xx and you can raise.

Transfer preempts work so well because many opponents are not used to it and do not use the extra bidding space to their advantage. F.E. You can show nearly double as many hands against a transfer opening, just by passing in the first round and bidding later.
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#19 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 10:41

View PostCurls77, on 2012-March-05, 08:28, said:

Thank you all for all those (different) answers and opinions ;)
I do now see how and why X would be right choice on the first board, and I don't feel too big a chicken for 2D bid on the last.

But, I still do not understand fully the second board.. Lets assume they did open directly 3c, so I couldn't pass and eventually balance later after the transfer done with 3D (which never crossed my mind - lack of experience).
So if it goes:
(3) 3 (X) 3
partner can choose to pass, raise D, bid 3N, redouble or freely bid new suit. This latest action, him being unlimited hand, seems so very forcing to me, how it is not?
And what would his pass / raise / new suit mean if there was no double?

Thanks for your help!

IMO, your hand is not good enough for a direct action over a 3 opening bid, so I would pass. Others may differ, but I prefer that my actions in direct seat over a preempt be sound.
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#20 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 17:54

View PostCurls77, on 2012-March-05, 08:28, said:

So if it goes:
(3) 3 (X) [?]
partner can choose to pass, raise D, bid 3N, redouble or freely bid new suit. ...

A double opposite a pre-empt is normally for penalty (if rare at the 3 level, though you can ask), so I don't think raising is a realistic option. If partner likes they can just pass; if you manage to make 9 tricks you'll get a very good score :D
A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem – Albert Einstein
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