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Who should apologize? ATB 2 hands, a sequence, a contract and a discussion...

#21 User is online   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 10:27

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-March-01, 04:11, said:

Some might say 3 is "weak" ( a minimum 2/1 initially ) and 4 "weaker still" .


I don´t know the some you are reffering to. 3NT is weak, not 3.

And you say those "someones" think that bidding 4m over 3NT is weaker?, then I don´t care what they think really.


BTW: set trumps doesn´t mean we neccesarilly explore for slam, it means we play in that suit, unless we play in NT
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#22 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 10:38

Enjoyed Mikeh's items number 2 and three especially.

No doubt, this hand is a proper upgrade from the 1NT range. Another perspective: For us, after

1H-2D
?.....3NT instead of 2NT shows that exact distribution (3-5-2-3) and also 18-19 ---one of those specialized unnessesary jumps in a 2/1 auction which narrowly describe. This would allow South to be the one in a position to take over; and South, unlike North, can pretty much count tricks.

1H-2D
3N-? Your choice of Minorwood or Kickback for diamonds according to taste, and South places the contract.
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#23 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 11:33

I hope 2NT promised extras ? It seems unplayable if it's 12-21.
Now I think if 2NT promised extras then I wouldn't split hairs and just bid 3NT with minimum's (as we have 26-27+hcp guaranteed) so 3S should be a cue bid.
Regardless of what 3S is though why responder didn't bid 4C is mystery to me. If we still need some mechanism to find out about hcp ranges then 4D bid during cuebids by either player could show minimum (similar to non-serious 3NT) but you don't skip cuebids when doing this so:

1H - 2D
2N - 3D
3S - ???
-4C = cuebid, nothing about strength
-4D = minimum, no club cuebid
-4H = heart cuebid, no club cuebid, max

After 4C opener bids 4D with min and cuebids with max and there we go.

Now if we are into system design of course it sucks to go beyond 3NT on minimum hands so after 3D one of 3S/3H calls could be used as minimum after which responder bids 3NT if he has no further slam interest.
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#24 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 12:36

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-March-01, 11:33, said:

I hope 2NT promised extras ? It seems unplayable if it's 12-21.

In 2/1 it's usually played as split-range, either 11-14 or 18+.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#25 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 13:01

View PostNabooba, on 2012-March-01, 03:46, said:

I would also open 1NT playing 15-17. You play 14-16 then announce that! Sometimes you can have a maximum for your bid. What do you mean "that" style? Do you open balanced hands with some other bid?


If you include a 5-card major in your 1NT openings and you play a 'normal' style 15-17 1NT then this hand is too strong. "15-17" is usually taken to mean nowadays "very good 14 to most 17s", although there are certainly people around who play it as somewhat stronger.

Personally I open balanced hands with a 5-card major 1 of the major, as does quite a large proportion of the (non-US) bridge playing world. You would do well to lay off the sarcasm.
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#26 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 13:06

On your actual auction, is gnasher right that 2NT was split range balanced?

The one thing that North can't do, as mich-b points out, is to take control with a keycard ask and then sign off with only one keycard missing. That's double-crossing partner.

3S over 3D does sound ambiguous - either it's looking for 3NT or it's an advance cue for diamonds. 3H sounds like it could show good hearts, looking for a 5-2 fit, which is also a bit ambiguous. North could have made his hand type clearer on the round before simply by raising 3D to 4D, saying "I have the 18-19 balanced type hand and some sort of diamond fit". South can cue 4H (or ask for keycards!), North 4S, South 5C, North 6D and there you are.
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#27 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 13:21

For me 3 is a cue for diamonds. North could have temporized with 2 if he was wide open in a black suit; once he bids 2nt there shouldn't be a concern about whether 3nt is "playable" -- only whether we have a diamond slam. I would've bid 3 over 3 (cheapest cue). I think 3 sets trump opposite partner's balanced hand, although 3nt by either partner (indicating a poor hand for slam) could still end the auction.
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a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#28 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 13:24

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2012-March-01, 13:01, said:

If you include a 5-card major in your 1NT openings and you play a 'normal' style 15-17 1NT then this hand is too strong. "15-17" is usually taken to mean nowadays "very good 14 to most 17s", although there are certainly people around who play it as somewhat stronger.

Personally I open balanced hands with a 5-card major 1 of the major, as does quite a large proportion of the (non-US) bridge playing world. You would do well to lay off the sarcasm.

Please don't attribute the 1NT bids on hands like these to US players. I would open the hand 1 without the J, as it does not appear to me to be the right type of 5-card major hand to open 1NT.
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#29 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 15:04

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2012-March-01, 13:06, said:

North could have made his hand type clearer on the round before simply by raising 3D to 4D, saying "I have the 18-19 balanced type hand and some sort of diamond fit"

Or even 4, saying "I have the 18-19 balanced type hand and some sort of diamond fit and a club control."
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#30 User is offline   xcurt 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 15:37

I think N gets some blame and poor agreements get some blame, but also sometimes you just have to take a shot at small slam even if you don't know it's cold. Since there's really no way competent opponents at the other table will miss game, you aren't laying very much odds taking a shot.
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#31 User is offline   Nabooba 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 18:03

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2012-March-01, 13:01, said:

If you include a 5-card major in your 1NT openings and you play a 'normal' style 15-17 1NT then this hand is too strong. "15-17" is usually taken to mean nowadays "very good 14 to most 17s", although there are certainly people around who play it as somewhat stronger.

Personally I open balanced hands with a 5-card major 1 of the major, as does quite a large proportion of the (non-US) bridge playing world. You would do well to lay off the sarcasm.


Got out of the wrong side of bed this morning, did we?
Is it advertized as 14-17? I bet not.
Where are you parrot?
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#32 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 19:38

View PostNabooba, on 2012-March-01, 18:03, said:

Got out of the wrong side of bed this morning, did we?
Is it advertized as 14-17? I bet not.


yes, on the card people often write (14)15-17, and I very often hear the announcement "good 14-17."
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#33 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 02:36

Quote

In 2/1 it's usually played as split-range, either 11-14 or 18+.


Yep, split range is playable too but that requires that you auto open every 5M-3-3-2 in range with 1N.
While it might be standard in some parts of the world I am not sure if it's implied by "2/1" system.

Quote

as it does not appear to me to be the right type of 5-card major hand to open 1NT.


If you use judgement when choosing an opening with 5M-3-3-2 in 1NT range then you need to know what to do in:

1S - 2X
?

I mean, just because we are forced to game it's not a reason we can randomly bid something and hope to sort range later. We need to know what to do with 12-14 balanced, 15-17 balanced and 18+balanced or however else we split our range here.

So, before we answer OP we need to know what kind of hand opener described by his 2N call.
Btw imo by far the best agreement is that 2N is 15+ and 12-14hands go into 2 of opener major (that is for people who don't auto open 1N with 5M-3-3-2).
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#34 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 02:55

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-March-02, 02:36, said:

Yep, split range is playable too but that requires that you auto open every 5M-3-3-2 in range with 1N.
While it might be standard in some parts of the world I am not sure if it's implied by "2/1" system.

When someone in this forum describes his system as "2/1" without further qualification, he invariably means "2/1 game-force, approximately as played by most people in North America". You can fight this if you want to, but you won't be able to change it.

Quote

Btw imo by far the best agreement is that 2N is 15+ and 12-14hands go into 2 of opener major (that is for people who don't auto open 1N with 5M-3-3-2).

If that's true, it's a good reason to agree to open 1NT on the 5M332 15-17s. 1M-2x;2M is already rather overloaded (except after a 2 response); it seems a bad idea to treble the frequency of this bid by adding all the minimum balanced hands to the mix.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#35 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 03:00

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-March-02, 02:36, said:

Yep, split range is playable too but that requires that you auto open every 5M-3-3-2 in range with 1N.

You can bid 2M or 3NT (or upgrade/downgrade to 2NT) with the 15-17's on hands that you don't want to open 1NT. It is not perfect, but neither is it unplayable in my opinion. So it doesn't require you to auto open every 5M-3-3-2 in range with 1N.
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#36 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 03:13

Quote

You can fight this if you want to, but you won't be able to change i


It's not my intention to fight that. It was genuine question: "does "2/1" implies that we auto-open 1NT with 5M-3-3-2 in range".

Quote

The rest of us already know.


If it's that clear then isn't it just as obvious that 3S promises (17)18+ range and skipping club cuebid with 30+hcp guaranteed is just a blunder ?

Quote

If that's true, it seems a pretty good reason for always opening 1NT with 5M332.


I think bidding 2N with 12-14 has disadvantages. With 12-14 you often lack stoppers and lose a chance to check for them (via 3rd suit) or play NT from better side. With 15+ it becomes less of a problem.
Putting those hands into 2M is imo better and there is enough space to untangle it. You could also put strong one suited hands there too (because jumping to 3M with them makes subsequent auction one big guess) and still be able to untangle it.
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#37 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 03:21

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-March-02, 03:13, said:

If it's that clear then isn't it just as obvious that 3S promises (17)18+ range and skipping club cuebid with 30+hcp guaranteed is just a blunder ?

No, it's not obvious. If you read some of the answers above, you'll see that many of us think 3 shows good spades, weak clubs, and uncertainty about the right strain.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#38 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 03:23

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-March-01, 11:33, said:

I hope 2NT promised extras ? It seems unplayable if it's 12-21.


Not to join the bandwagon against you but I really don't agree. Even if you want to open 1M with 5332 5cM you can bid 3N with 15+-17- to show that. This is definitely playable, and is not uncommon in other forcing auctions where jumps to 3N show ~16 with a certain shape.

12-21 seems like a disengenuous range, with 17+ you're not that concerned about reaching 4N opposite a 2/1 GF, and with 19+ you're not really concerned about driving to slam so those ranges being in 2N are not an issue since opener can do something later beyond 3N to show it.

If 2N was 12-17- or so then yes that would be a problem, but only on the hands where you're worried about missing slam, but also about going beyond 3N, so this range is really about 16ish (maybe a good 15 or a bad 17). That is the range to worry about and that can be solved by either opening 1N or jumping to 3N over 2D, it's not really such a huge probelm.
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#39 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 03:27

bluecalm, fwiw in my preferred style 2N shows good stoppers, and 5332 without good stoppers bids 2M. My main concern is to rightside 3N with these hands since that is a common thing, as I really do not think it's a problem if 2N is split range.
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#40 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 03:55

Quote

That is the range to worry about and that can be solved by either opening 1N or jumping to 3N over 2D, it's not really such a huge probelm.


Maybe I shouldn't use "auto-open" what I mean that many hands in 15-17 range don't open 1NT.
I don't like jumping to 3N, two things which are important is to check for 3card support in responder suit and for responder to show support in opener's suit. If you jump to 3N there is no space for that anymore.
If it goes: 1S - 2D - 3N you run out of bids because you need:

a)some bid to show slammish hands with S support
b)some bid for slammish hands with diamonds
c)some bid to show D+C two suiter

and it would be nice to have cuebids available with spades as trumps too.

Quote

it's not really such a huge probelm.


I am not saying it's huge problem :)

I asked if "2/1" implies opening 5M-3-3-2 with 1N because if not then it's not clear to me what 2N in OP is. Then I made general remark about this sequence expressing opinion that bidding 2N with 12-14 is inferior to bidding 2M which you seem to agree with, at least partially. I am not making huge problem out of it I am just saying.

Quote

you'll see that many of us think 3♠ shows good spades, weak clubs, and uncertainty about the right strain.


It goes against basic bidding principles to first bid NT and then look for stoppers instead doing it the other way around imo.
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