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Defence to a 1NT opening bid Ranking the options

#101 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 11:36

View PostfromageGB, on 2012-February-27, 08:24, said:

...
Ben, I am interested in your reversed Vertigo, where 2m is 4M5m, and X is 5M4other.
What are your advancer's replies to this double?

FAO benlessard
You seem to have missed this. When it goes (1NT) X (p) ? to you, what do your bids mean when X shows 5M4m? I can't figure out sensible continuations that can play in a fitting minor when there is no major fit.
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#102 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 11:51

View PostfromageGB, on 2012-March-01, 10:56, said:

The leaving, or the coming back ? :D

Don't they say: Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.
Kind Regards

Roland


Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
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#103 User is online   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 06:20

Sorry ive missed the question.

our responses are

2C= pass or correct at least 3 clubs (except 1642) (this almost always show a stiff in 1 M wich is always partner 5 cards suit IRL)
2D = natural at least 5D (because i dont like both M and dont have 3 clubs so 1552/5152/1462/4162
2H pass or correct (implies i have at least 2 in both M)
2S to play

only hand that i find lead to a bad contract is 1642 where you must bid 2C and hope partner got 5 of them when he passed. When advancer has both m and the overcaller/X has both M you are risking to play in 42 fit in any system.
With 2254/2245/your proper bid is 2H to be sure to play in a 5-2 fit/ (you will miss ur 44 if hes 5M+4m but opps have a sure M fit anyway so it doesnt cost that much. The problem with a 2245 is taht partner is just too likely to be 54 in the M. playing in the 52 and avoid the 42 is too important. This is the reason i really hate 2H (dont) or 2D as showing both M.

Also with 1525/1624 over partner X it will go 2C--2D (4/5D+5S) and 2H here is showing a stiff S and only 2D. the doubler will pass with 2 hearts and

2S = 6S/5D or 6 very bad S and 4 great D
2Nt = 5152
3C = 5143/5053
Wank comments on a ATB

"obviously north miscounted his cards and his points, whereas south only miscounted his cards"
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#104 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 05:24

View Postbenlessard, on 2012-March-02, 06:20, said:

our responses are ...

Thanks. I think this works well. You can get some bad ones, such as advancer with 4144 bidding 2C and playing there when doubler has 5314, but nothing is perfect and this won't happen often.
(Even if responder then bids 2H, you can't assume doubler has spades, because he could be 2524 for example. So your 9 card spade fit remains lost.)
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#105 User is online   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 06:20

If you have some pts you can double 2H to ask partner to pass or bid 2S, if you are broke then they have points and a 9 card suit so they are going be to 3H/4H and maybe you will still be able to double 3H/4H for example asking the double to bid 3S/4S or pass with 5H. Anyway ive been playing this defense for 10 years now and as far as i rememebr the case you just gave never happened. What happen however is

2344/3244, with that the correct response is 2C and the doubler bid 2H (both M) and you correct to your 3 cards suit playing in 43 rather than 52. Also we did get some bad boards with bidding 2C with (??54) and see partner pass with only 2 clubs. Im almost sure that its better to play that 2C is always at least 5 and you need to pass with ??54 or bid 2nt if you have guts.
Wank comments on a ATB

"obviously north miscounted his cards and his points, whereas south only miscounted his cards"
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#106 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-March-08, 02:00

Ha, this kenrexford book is like a long long BBF post of his! It's a really great read! But I haven't finished yet so I can't comment.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#107 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-March-15, 03:49

I have found that many defences to opps 1n/t give a lot of information away to the declarer
of the 1n/t,and his pard has machinery to overcome the problem...
Whether ones opp is ply a weak or strong n/t ones anti system should be the same...
Vulnerability comes into the equation as well....

Suggestion---"Pirate def to opps 1n/t" its all about what position one is in.
we have 2nd pos'n and 4th pos'n.this depends who opens the 1n/t,you are in either pos'n.

So in second position we have transfers {Major's} Stayman asks pard do you have a 4 card major?
if no bid 2d...but you can agree to bid a 3 card major.also 2n/t is asking pard for Minors.

now 4th position...we have Natural-Stayman-2n/t minor orientated.
whatever position one is in we are competing not neccesary slamming or game orientated...
think on this sequence opp 1n/t you 2d=Bid hts pard,this besets a problem for the other opp?
if they pass message understood a calm bid of 2hts ensues.but if opp has a problem,:):)
and if it went 1n/t 2n/t{Minors)?????
I have used and compiled this defence with 80% success--Im prepared to admit the odd time it
backfires with no damage incurred
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#108 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-15, 06:21

View Postpirate22, on 2012-March-15, 03:49, said:

I have used and compiled this defence with 80% success

How do you calculate your success rate?
(-: Zel :-)
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#109 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-March-15, 23:38

How does one calculate the success rate ??? by the results-which i have documented,and recorded--both in Live Tourneys and internet tourneys-and i accept one can play say 24 boards and it does not come up-as if one plays splinters-the same oppurtunity does not come up
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#110 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-16, 01:57

View Postpirate22, on 2012-March-15, 23:38, said:

How does one calculate the success rate ??? by the results-which i have documented,and recorded--both in Live Tourneys and internet tourneys-and i accept one can play say 24 boards and it does not come up-as if one plays splinters-the same oppurtunity does not come up

So your method is 80% as successful as typical BBO Intermediate pick-up partnerships? Does that mean that a well-played mainstream method is 200% successful?
(-: Zel :-)
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#111 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-18, 10:48

Another strange defense to a 1NT opening bid I stumbled across. It's called VROOM
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#112 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-March-18, 22:44

View Post32519, on 2012-March-18, 10:48, said:

Another strange defense to a 1NT opening bid I stumbled across. It's called VROOM


Looks pretty playable to me.
London, England
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#113 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-March-18, 22:47

with due respect to all inputee's--- Surely one of the objects is to have defences available,but one must conserve ones brain power,with kens no doubt well concieved and written,but so much to remember..
One of the objects to arrive at if possible,is if we win the auction the 1n/t bidder is on lead...
The penalty x is always there,and to minimise sytems use same defence whether the opps 1n/t is 12/14----------- or 15-17.
My comment with 2 suiter hands in defence,it gives the opponents to much information away.
However this topic is developing very well
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#114 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 02:07

View Post32519, on 2012-March-18, 10:48, said:

Another strange defense to a 1NT opening bid I stumbled across. It's called VROOM

It is OK but insisting on 5-5 is too restrictive. The base (X = , 2 = ) is essentially the same as my defence to a strong NT but the author has missed a trick by failing to include the major 2-suiters here (thus allowing length differentiation) instead of the 1-suiters. The 1-suiters can be shown through 2 instead, for example.
(-: Zel :-)
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#115 User is offline   campboy 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 02:39

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-March-19, 02:07, said:

It is OK but insisting on 5-5 is too restrictive. The base (X = , 2 = ) is essentially the same as my defence to a strong NT but the author has missed a trick by failing to include the major 2-suiters here (thus allowing length differentiation) instead of the 1-suiters. The 1-suiters can be shown through 2 instead, for example.

Agree with you about the shape requirements being excessive. Perhaps the reason for not doing what you suggest with the 1-suiters was to keep it GCC legal, though.
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#116 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 22:13

View Postpirate22, on 2012-March-18, 22:47, said:

Surely one of the objects is to have defences available,but one must conserve ones brain power,with kens no doubt well concieved and written,but so much to remember..

I disagreed with the brain drain argument on another of 32519's threads, but I guess it's a small factor. If one system over another may or may not have a minor advantage, or it's not clear which is better, then the simpler system wins until you are ready to tackle the more complex system, as an experiment at least.

What has also been pointed out here recently, is that it depends on your general methods and style. What is advantageous for one partnership may not be for another... B-)
A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem – Albert Einstein
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#117 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-21, 00:51

View PostfromageGB, on 2012-February-27, 08:06, said:

I agree with Adam. I am not concerned about the game hands, let alone the slam hands. I want multiple bids that show the hand types I have, and my objective is to compete the part scores. Admittedly I have a lousy memory, but I can remember only one time there was a possible (missed) game our way, and many, many times there wasn't. This may be a matchpoint opinion, but I value frequency more than game tries.

If you lump ALL "competitive" hands into one bid, yes you "compete" but you have no hope of reaching a sensible contract.


This statement is absurd. Many defences to 1NT are major suit orientated. My 2 overcall incorporates 3 different major suit holdings:
1. 6S-4H 10-15 HCP
2. 4S-6H 10-15 HCP
3. 4S-5H 11-15 HCP (Flannery)

When partner has nothing (or not enough) to push for game, it still becomes a part-score battle. In 2/3 of these hand patterns you end up in 3 of a major. How bad is that compared to a 2NT overcall promising 5-5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP? You end up on level 3 (often doubled) with less HCP. What makes the 2NT overcall A HUGE GAIN FOR THE OPPONENTS is this: you have just succeeded in telling them the hand layout and HCP distribution. They can now bid a thin game in the majors, finessing partner for the major suits.

My 5-10 HCP hands guarantee a 5-card major. When the major is , I can still push the opponents out of their comfort zone into level 3.

When I show 5-5 in the minors 11-13 HCP, partner at least has something to work with now. At favourable vulnerability, 4mX down 1 obviously scores better than the opponents making 3M.
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#118 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-March-21, 10:46

Oh dear. I thought we were going to be safe until the end of June :(
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#119 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-March-22, 02:28

To 32159--while your shape of 6/4 or 4/6 is a good incentive to get the opponents out of their comfort zone-one should have the frequencies in mind-also this frequency-4/4/4/1 or 4/4/1/4 and one is not Vuln V vuln,also having a minimum system to impart info to partner,who can or may not contribute,consider the partner of the 1n/t bid if you stick your oar in {2cl ! }your pard knows you have both majors could be 6/4 or 4/6 or 4/4,let the opps sort it out,if they pass your bid pard is in the driving seat
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#120 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-March-22, 02:37

To Statto--- you are getting my drift,have a simple def 2nd pos'n tou have transfer's stayman and UNT------ and in 4th position one has natural stayman and UNT,its a question of judgement and the Vulnerability--- and it covers opps 1n/t opening be it 12-14--or 15-17----and one still keeps the x available
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