[wyman]

So I don't know if it's kosher to post hands from BW on here, being that it's subscription-based and all, but I assume many of you get it anyway. I'll spoiler the hand in case you are gonna be all "damn, dude, I haven't looked at that one yet," and the topic description didn't dissuade you.

---

No agreements about serious/frivolous, so 3N would be a suggestion to play.

edit: well, tried to spoiler, but that resizes the image to where we'd need an electron microscope.
edit2: not the world's worst slam. Kxx/Kx in the slot and clubs 4-2, but still one I'd rather not be in.
edit3: err, and the H10...

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Looks like you need to play one of the Serious/Frivolous 3NT .

When ♥ are trump, the 3♠ cue needs to be made playing either one .
..... By-passing 3♠ would deny a ♠ - Ctrl.

If playing Serious 3NT, then 4♣ by East is a Frivolous -- or courtesy -- cue .

Armed with that information, West should put on the brakes.... instead of stepping on the gas.

[Codo]

The problem is: Till Dummy hits the table, both hands had never been seriously limited. You still just know that opener has 12+ hcps- he could easily have 20 and bid the same way.

This problem is so common, that there are solutions, like mimimum relays, ser/fri 3 NT or scanning tools.

For me ser/fri 3 Nt is the easiest way to solve the problem.
After 3 ♠ 4 ♣ had been nonserious and West had an easy 4 Heart bid.

[gszes]

 wyman, on 2012-February-20, 10:53, said:

So I don't know if it's kosher to post hands from BW on here, being that it's subscription-based and all, but I assume many of you get it anyway. I'll spoiler the hand in case you are gonna be all "damn, dude, I haven't looked at that one yet," and the topic description didn't dissuade you.

---

No agreements about serious/frivolous, so 3N would be a suggestion to play.

edit: well, tried to spoiler, but that resizes the image to where we'd need an electron microscope.
edit2: not the world's worst slam. Kxx/Kx in the slot and clubs 4-2, but still one I'd rather not be in.
edit3: err, and the H10...

bidding seemed quite good until it went off rails after 4d bid.
It has already been established your side has all the controls
needed for slam but maybe power is lacking. After 4d why not just
bid 4h so that someone on your side can finally limit their power?

[aguahombre]

 Codo, on 2012-February-20, 11:53, said:

The problem is: Till Dummy hits the table, neither both hands had never been seriously limited. You still just know that opener has 12+ hcps- he could easily have 20 and bid the same way.

This is exactly the problem. I have no solution within the conditions.

Even without relays or particularly special toys, a different style could have shown opener's exact distibution, slam interest for hearts, and a maximum of 14 HCP all below 3NT.
Then responder could have backed off in 4H.

So, it is hard to ATB within the context.

[bluecalm]

2♥ should be reverse and extras. This hand should bid 2NT = 12-14 without 5 diamonds.
If you bid 2♥ with this and with 11-22hcp and 5D-4H and with every 6-4 etc. then there is no way you ever get reasonable bidding.
Partner needs to know something about shape to assess his values, frivolous/serious 3nt won't help you here.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 bluecalm, on 2012-February-20, 12:49, said:

2♥ should be reverse and extras. This hand should bid 2NT = 12-14 without 5 diamonds.
If you bid 2♥ with this and with 11-22 hcp and 5D-4H and with every 6-4 etc. then there is no way you ever get reasonable bidding.
Partner needs to know something about shape to assess his values, frivolous/serious 3nt won't help you here.

I beg to differ.
2C! was a 2/1 GF w/♣ suit but did not deny a 4 card Major.
Thus, after the 2/1 GF, 2H is not a reverse but just shows a 4 card major: and at the same time it denies a 5+ card ♦ suit.
If Opener had rebid 2D, that would have shown a 5+ card suit, but still NOT deny a 4 card Major.
There is still plenty of room at the 2-level to find a 4-4 Major fit... if one exists.
-- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Of course you may want to treat 2H as a Reverse, and maybe you have designed a structure to accommodate this.
[ Didn't we just have a recent thread entitled: Don't Hide a 4 Card Major ? ] .
But, if 2NT were rebid by Opener with this hand ( as you suggest ), you wouldn't even have suit agreement ( ♥ ) at the 3-level.
Responder could rebid 3H, then Opener could agree with 4H -- now at the 4-level . Responder is unlimited, and if he had a big hand, the entire cuebidding space BELOW 4H has been lost !

As mentioned by others also, .... Ser/Friv 3NT is the answer.

[Yu18772]

Imo 4NT is an overbid with 14 points after 3H and a q - with a real min responder could bid 4H directly.
3S and 4D are almost mandatory (since 3H is unlimited) and I showed everything there is - a better than min required for gf 5 clubs and 4 hearts. Opener saw we have all the controls, with a good hand he will continue.

Yu

[bluecalm]

good bad 3nt will split 11-22 hands with all possible shapes into 2 ranges; helpful for sure but won't solve your problems; some definition must came earlier. One way is to play 2H/2S as reverses other is to always bid 2D with 5+diamonds but that one probably require heavy artificial scheme to untangle.

Quote

Responder is unlimited, and if he had a big hand, the entire cuebidding space BELOW 4H has been lost !

Not really.
1D - 2C
2H - 3H

3S/4C/4D are cuebids here. 2NT already announced 12-14balanced hand so there is no other sense for those bids. This way you split 12-14 futher into hopeless slam hands (by omitting cuebids) and decent+ by bidding cuebid. This way responder will know not only precise point range but something more, you could never hope for such precision in you scheme.

[mike777]

 wyman, on 2012-February-20, 10:53, said:

So I don't know if it's kosher to post hands from BW on here, being that it's subscription-based and all, but I assume many of you get it anyway. I'll spoiler the hand in case you are gonna be all "damn, dude, I haven't looked at that one yet," and the topic description didn't dissuade you.

---

No agreements about serious/frivolous, so 3N would be a suggestion to play.

edit: well, tried to spoiler, but that resizes the image to where we'd need an electron microscope.
edit2: not the world's worst slam. Kxx/Kx in the slot and clubs 4-2, but still one I'd rather not be in.
edit3: err, and the H10...

not stated but it seems with the 2h alert opener will very often be limited to a balanced hand 12-14.

responder seems to have minimum gf bal/semibal hand.

It seems 4h over 4d is best then. If pard has extras (more than bal 12-14) she can take control.

[Siegmund]

Every so often a hand comes along where those of us who start with 1H on the East cards actually get a payoff (West is able to set trump limit himself immediately with 2H).

[aguahombre]

 Siegmund, on 2012-February-21, 00:10, said:

Every so often a hand comes along where those of us who start with 1H on the East cards actually get a payoff (West is able to set trump limit himself immediately with 2H).

And it is good to recognize when that happens, that it was just an accidental thing..serendipity. Next step is to realize all those situations where we cannot have a decent auction to the correct strain and level when we don't respond with our longest suit first ---with G.F. strength.

[benlessard]

If you play 3nt serious/friv you have np here. If 2H doesnt show extras strenght, East has to bid 4H not 4Nt RKC. he has the worse shape and minimum values.

[gnasher]

It's true that serious or non-serious 3NT is a useful convention, but on this hand it really shouldn't have mattered.

According to the description in the diagram, 2♥ denied five diamonds. It is therefore most likely to be a weak notrump, and East should bid on that assumption. East's decision to go past 4♥ was simply wrong.

[rhm]

 Codo, on 2012-February-20, 11:53, said:

The problem is: Till Dummy hits the table, both hands had never been seriously limited. You still just know that opener has 12+ hcps- he could easily have 20 and bid the same way.

This problem is so common, that there are solutions, like mimimum relays, ser/fri 3 NT or scanning tools.

For me ser/fri 3 Nt is the easiest way to solve the problem.

As I understand the auction in a standard context:

2♥: not a reverse, since it denies 5 diamonds. East should continue on the assumption that

a) Opener is very likely to be balanced, 4441 being the only possible exception and I think it is better to splinter with 4441 over 2♣ unless your singleton turns out to be in clubs.
b) Since Opener is balanced he will be in the 12-14 range at least 95% of the time and we will hear from him anyway if he is not.

Given these simple inferences, responder clearly overbid, when he bypassed 4♥.
No need for some fancy serious / non-serious 3NT. Opener did limit his hand and responder did not hear. Opener would continue over 4♥ opposite a game force with 18-19 balanced or 15+ and a singleton club (If he does not with 15+, you will be missing 2 key-cards anyway).

100% blame to East

Rainer Herrmann

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Edit: Mike777 and the last 3 posts ( by Rainer, Andy, and Ben ) make a compelling argument about Opener's balanced shape and minimum values based on the first 2 rounds of bidding -- something I had not thought about before .
I agree that Responder ( East ) should use this information and sign-off in 4H.

Now for a slight change. Let's make Opener unbalanced ( w/ 5 cards ♦ with the same values and the ♥ - fit :

West ........... East
A x .............. J 10
A 9 x x ........ Q J x x
A x x x x ...... K x
Q x .............. A K x x x

1D ............... 2C
2D ............... 2H
3H ............... 4C
??
Now will West continue with a move, since East has not limited ?
If East's 4C were a Frivolous Cue ( also denying a Sp Ctrl ), then West would have an easier decision .

[gnasher]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-February-21, 08:32, said:

The last 3 posts ( by Rainer, Andy, and Ben ) make a compelling argument about Opener's balanced shape and minimum values based on the first 2 rounds of bidding.

I think it was Mike777 who first pointed this out.

[ahydra]

Just play weak notrump, where West opens 1NT

If you play 2/1 you need to discuss whether 2H promises just 4 hearts and <5 diamonds, or whether it also promises extras. Supposing you agree the former - what's up with the 3S bid when you have this weak NT? 4H looks clear. If 3S is forced by the system, I suggest you get a new system... else how is East meant to know whether you hold 12 points or 21.

ahydra

[wyman]

Quote

Supposing you agree the former - what's up with the 3S bid when you have this weak NT? 4H looks clear. If 3S is forced by the system, I suggest you get a new system... else how is East meant to know whether you hold 12 points or 21.

It's going to be pretty hard for responder to make a move over 4H missing 3 aces. I feel like it's bad bridge for a hand this control rich to leap to 4H in this auction. [notwithstanding the point that it's bad bridge to have bid this slam ]

[rhm]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-February-21, 08:32, said:

Edit: Mike777 and the last 3 posts ( by Rainer, Andy, and Ben ) make a compelling argument about Opener's balanced shape and minimum values based on the first 2 rounds of bidding -- something I had not thought about before .
I agree that Responder ( East ) should use this information and sign-off in 4H.

Now for a slight change. Let's make Opener unbalanced ( w/ 5 cards ♦ with the same values and the ♥ - fit :

West ........... East
A x .............. J 10
A 9 x x ........ Q J x x
A x x x x ...... K x
Q x .............. A K x x x

1D ............... 2C
2D ............... 2H
3H ............... 4C
??
Now will West continue with a move, since East has not limited ?
If East's 4C were a Frivolous Cue ( also denying a Sp Ctrl ), then West would have an easier decision .

This is a matter of slam bidding philosophy.
I do not belong to the school, which believes you should do automatic cue-bidding in a game forcing sequence and the right level will ensue. I have been hurt too often.
With the West hand I would not stop below 6♥ if East made a cue-bid of 4♣. The West hand you constructed has won in value and is worth much more than 14 HCP.
Slam has about 30% against a spade lead and otherwise about 60%.
I never understood the concept of a frivolous Cue. Does this mean do not take me seriously? Then why give the defense information in the first place?
I think the one, who initiates cue bidding should have some reasonable expectation of slam given the previous bidding and not bid his partner's hand.
If you do otherwise, you only help the defense in 4♥. (This is particularly crucial in pairs contests).
I would cue-bid with the East hand if some suitable hands in the minimum range for opener would make 6♥ cold. Here there are no such hands.
I am against automatic cue-bids because your partner could still have a huge hand, nor do I like the principle of fast arrival, unless partner has limited his hand.
But this hardly means 4♥ does not exist in this sequence. 4♥ by East means I have a hand unsuitable for slam (too many holes).
East has forced to game but is still missing 4 key-cards and second round control of spades. He knows a spade lead is likely to be forthcoming now.
If you sign off in 4♥ with the East hand and West passes are you likely to have missed anything?
If West has all 4 key cards he has at least 15 HCP and will not respect the sign-off.
Would you as West respect partner's sign off in 4♥ with say ♠Ax,♥AKxx, Axxxx, Qx or similar?
I would not.
As it is I would reluctantly pass a 4♥ sign-off with the West hand you constructed.
Judgement rules this game not robot like sequences.

Rainer Herrmann