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another alert question and an oops

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-February-17, 20:05

2 (weak) 2N (feature)
3

2N is not alertable, is 3 alertable and if 'yes' is it because it falls under convention bids?

Convention: A bid or call which, by partnership agreement, conveys a meaning not
necessarily related to the denomination named or, in the case of Pass, Double and Redouble, the
last denomination named. In addition a Pass which promises more than a specified strength,
or artificially promises or denies values other than the last suit named.


And the oops. Playing with new partner todeay, LHO openers 1N, partner doubles. I tap the alert card and say "alert - but I don't
know what it means". I find it normal to keep quiet when I know the meaning of a bid, not quite so easy when I don't know what it is.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#2 User is online   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-February-17, 21:02

View Postjillybean, on 2012-February-17, 20:05, said:

I tap the alert card and say "alert - but I don't
know what it means".


Might get a PP for this, as the UI is deliberate rather than accidental.
London, England
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#3 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-February-17, 21:56

View PostVampyr, on 2012-February-17, 21:02, said:

Might get a PP for this, as the UI is deliberate rather than accidental.

I agree I should, but it would never result in a PP here.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#4 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-February-17, 22:52

The responses to artificial asking bids such as 2NT are alertable, even if the response is a rebid of your suit. It carries a message other than "I have a weak 2-bid", which they already suspect.
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#5 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 02:01

View Postjillybean, on 2012-February-17, 20:05, said:

2 (weak) 2N (feature)
3

2N is not alertable, is 3 alertable and if 'yes' is it because it falls under convention bids?

Convention: A bid or call which, by partnership agreement, conveys a meaning not
necessarily related to the denomination named or, in the case of Pass, Double and Redouble, the
last denomination named. In addition a Pass which promises more than a specified strength,
or artificially promises or denies values other than the last suit named.


I would say that 3 is alertable. But can you explain to me why 2NT is not alertable? It is clearly a convention. Or is there a specific exception for 2NT "asking for a feature"?

Rik
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#6 User is offline   tabaresort 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 04:07

View Postjillybean, on 2012-February-17, 20:05, said:

2 (weak) 2N (feature)
3

2N is not alertable, is 3 alertable and if 'yes' is it because it falls under convention bids?

Convention: A bid or call which, by partnership agreement, conveys a meaning not
necessarily related to the denomination named or, in the case of Pass, Double and Redouble, the
last denomination named. In addition a Pass which promises more than a specified strength,
or artificially promises or denies values other than the last suit named.


And the oops. Playing with new partner todeay, LHO openers 1N, partner doubles. I tap the alert card and say "alert - but I don't
know what it means". I find it normal to keep quiet when I know the meaning of a bid, not quite so easy when I don't know what it is.

In Acol 2NT is alterable if asking for strength of partners weak 2, as is the answer 3H.
It is better to alert even when you cannot remember the reason. Just say " I cannot remember", if then the opps want to know what it is you can volunteer to step away from the table and they can ask your partner. You should never say "I take it as ......". That could be UI.
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#7 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 08:09

View Posttabaresort, on 2012-February-18, 04:07, said:

In Acol 2NT is alterable if asking for strength of partners weak 2, as is the answer 3H.
It is better to alert even when you cannot remember the reason. Just say " I cannot remember", if then the opps want to know what it is you can volunteer to step away from the table and they can ask your partner. You should never say "I take it as ......". That could be UI.

I must Alert, it is not correct to say " I cannot remember" until asked about the alert - that was my entire point.

2NT is not alertable (unless it is natural) simply because the ACBL alert chart says so.
Listed under no alert, Conventional 2NT responses to natural two-level opening bids
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 10:34

View PostTrinidad, on 2012-February-18, 02:01, said:

I would say that 3 is alertable. But can you explain to me why 2NT is not alertable? It is clearly a convention. Or is there a specific exception for 2NT "asking for a feature"?

Rik

It is not alertable because (aside from the fact that ACBL says so), it is part of the concept that the Alert can only help the side using it to remember their agreements. Explaining what partner is going to do is not a good thing.

The recent change in alertability of Puppet is another move in the right direction. Now, if we could only get rid of other disclosures which explain what will happen next.....
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#9 User is offline   tabaresort 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 11:00

View Postjillybean, on 2012-February-18, 08:09, said:

I must Alert, it is not correct to say " I cannot remember" until asked about the alert - that was my entire point.

2NT is not alertable (unless it is natural) simply because the ACBL alert chart says so.
Listed under no alert, Conventional 2NT responses to natural two-level opening bids

Sorry I was referring to ACOL. I must admit I do not know anything about the American systems.
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 11:56

What requires an alert has more to do with where you are than what you're playing, since alert regulations are promulgated by your Regulating Authority, which is usually your NBO. In particular, EBU and ACBL alert regulations differ in several particulars, this (whether 2NT in response to a weak two requires an alert) being one of them.
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#11 User is offline   LH2650 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 21:16

If you play that 3 shows a minimum weak two bid with no inference as to holdings in outside suits, I think that you are using a treatment rather than a convention. A treatment is alertable only if the ACBL specifically states that it is, and that is not the case here.
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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 21:50

View PostLH2650, on 2012-February-18, 21:16, said:

If you play that 3 shows a minimum weak two bid with no inference as to holdings in outside suits, I think that you are using a treatment rather than a convention. A treatment is alertable only if the ACBL specifically states that it is, and that is not the case here.

This reasoning is along the lines of the discussion I am having. They are saying 3M is not alertable here because " I think because 3 hearts is a natural bid, it is not alertable. A rebid of a suit is usually the weakest bid a player can make. Which is what it means in this case." I think the fact that it denies an outside control makes it alertable.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

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#13 User is offline   kevperk 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 21:57

In the ACBL, a 2NT response to a weak two bid is not alertable unless it is natural. Also, responses showing a feature and repeat of ones suit without a feature are not alertable. Artificial responses, such as Ogust, are alertable.
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#14 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 22:08

View Postkevperk, on 2012-February-18, 21:57, said:

In the ACBL, a 2NT response to a weak two bid is not alertable unless it is natural. Also, responses showing a feature and repeat of ones suit without a feature are not alertable. Artificial responses, such as Ogust, are alertable.

You made that up just to annoy us? Conventional responses to the 2NT asking bid are alertable.
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#15 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 22:57

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-February-18, 22:08, said:

You made that up just to annoy us? Conventional responses to the 2NT asking bid are alertable.

I've never heard of anyone being required to alert feature responses in ACBL. It's the assumed default set of responses to 2NT. Any OTHER type of response would be alertable.

I can't find any justification of this in the Alert Procedures, but it's the way everyone has always done it. Maybe it's because bidding a suit with a feature is considered natural? But I think you would show a doubleton honor, and that's not a natural suit.

#16 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 23:04

I see there is much confusion

and I love this

Quote

I can't find any justification of this in the Alert Procedures, but it's the way everyone has always done it.

Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#17 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 23:28

Not even close to granting the hyperbole about "no one does it". The alert procedures are clear about bids which convey or deny something about that suit or another suit, and when the suit being bid is not being bid naturally.

KX in a side suit does not meet the definition of "natural", which requires 3+ cards in a minor or 4+ in a major. There is no confusion.

There is also no confusion about the rules which state a natural bid which carries information about some other suit(s) is alertable. That would be the case when the rebid of the weak two suit denies an outside feature.

Perhaps nobody has followed the rules in someone's experience; but that does not make it the correct procedure. No competent pair I have ever run across has failed to alert the feature or lack-of-feature responses to 2NT.
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#18 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-February-18, 23:47

I've been playing tournament bridge in ACBL for about 20 years. I can't recall anyone ever alerting a feature response. And it's not just a local thing, I go to an average of 2 NABCs a year.

#19 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-February-19, 00:02

I recommend that each authority's rules be preceeded by a general clause which states:

"Any procedure herein, which in the player's experience is not adhered to by the majority of players, is not a requirement."
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#20 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-February-19, 00:16

And then who is feeling left out? The lovely secretary birds. Let's just toss the law book.

Posted Image
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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