BBO Discussion Forums: 6-5 monster - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

6-5 monster opps multi

Poll: 6-5 monster (11 member(s) have cast votes)

What's your call?

  1. Pass (7 votes [63.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 63.64%

  2. Double (takeout) (1 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  3. 2NT (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. 3C (2 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  5. 3NT (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. 4NT (1 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  7. 5C (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. 6C (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. Other (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   manudude03 

  • - - A AKQJT9876543
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,626
  • Joined: 2007-October-02
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-14, 20:12



I had this slightly awkward bidding decision tonight. Unfortunately 4C from you would promise and (all bids are under the assumption opener has a weak 2 in hearts).
Wayne Somerville
0

#2 User is offline   Statto 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 636
  • Joined: 2011-December-01
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, but not in conflation.
    Statistics, but not massaged by the media.

Posted 2012-February-14, 21:09

Pass for now, I'm pretty sure I'll get another bid, and in the meantime I'll find out something from partner's next call.

I've played variants where double shows , which would be ideal here, but in standard Dixon it is take out.

To bid any number of or now puts partner under too much pressure without knowing an awful lot about our hand, and doesn't guarantee we'll even get to bid again. Though I'm not sure how I'm going to bid next, but at least I'll know a little more about partner's hand.
A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem – Albert Einstein
1

#3 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,203
  • Joined: 2010-October-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 2012-February-14, 21:14

If you pass and opener corrects to 2S ( like you think he will ), then pass - pass - ?? will 4C! now be Leaping Michaels ?
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
0

#4 User is offline   manudude03 

  • - - A AKQJT9876543
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,626
  • Joined: 2007-October-02
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-14, 21:50

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-February-14, 21:14, said:

If you pass and opener corrects to 2S ( like you think he will ), then pass - pass - ?? will 4C! now be Leaping Michaels ?


yes
Wayne Somerville
0

#5 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,193
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2012-February-14, 22:17

Pass followed by 4C
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#6 User is offline   JLOGIC 

  • 2011 Poster of The Year winner
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,002
  • Joined: 2010-July-08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-14, 22:50

I am not sure that pass is theoretically sound as the multi bidder might pass 2H with short hearts at these colors since he knows his partner does not have enough hearts to bid 2S. This is especially true if he has table feel and you hitch even slightly before passing 2H as he will suspect you have values and hearts.

I think 4m should be that minor plus either major in this auction.

Another obvious risk of passing is that it goes 2S on your left, 4S on your right, and you haven't described your hand. You can bid 4N but it might be tough to find slam etc. It all gets kind of murky.
3

#7 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,455
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Enschede, the Netherlands
  • Interests:matching LaTeX delimiters :(

Posted 2012-February-15, 00:37

gnasher's penalty or t/o doubles would work like a charm here ;)
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
0

#8 User is offline   32519 

  • Insane 2-Diamond Bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,454
  • Joined: 2010-December-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mpumalanga, South Africa
  • Interests:Books, bridge, philately

Posted 2012-February-15, 01:04

The actual hand here poses many errors/questions/lessons from which, apart from myself, others can learn as well. Therefore I have chosen to post the full hand for further discussion.



Errors/Questions/Lessons:
1) I STRONGLY disagree with South opening here, either with Multi or a standard weak 2♥. When holding 6-4 in the majors, I have seen it all too often that the partnership misses game in the shorter major. On this layout 4♠ makes if you guess the ♠ suit correctly. So for me, South should pass here. On the actual bidding sequence, the ♠ fit was buried.
2) North’s opening bid here poses some interesting questions –
a) Do you open Multi, Muiderberg or a weak 2♠? Obviously the decision depends on your system agreements. This partnership were playing Multi, so to advertise a 6-card major, North would probably have opened 2♦.
b) East enters the bidding with 2♥. South now knows that North’s suit is ♠. Holding 4 and a ♣ void, the cross-ruffing potential is huge. Added to favourable vulnerability, many South’s may easily jump to 4♠.
3) Pass-Pass-back to East. What now? Easy, with this holding, the next bid is 5♣.
4) Back to South. With the ♣ void, South is now looking at a sacrifice and raises the stakes by bidding 5♠.
5) Pass-Pass-back to East. What now? In the actual sequence, East blasted into 6♣ and got away with it because North was on lead.
6) Pass-Pass-back to North. What now? What bid is available to North demanding a ♥ lead which defeats the contract? A Lightner Slam Double is the answer. http://www.gabrial-u...ns/LIGHTNER.HTM A Lightner X demands an unusual lead, not that bid by the defenders. With East overcalling ♥ and South holding 6, playing Lightner Slam Doubles, South should be able to work out that a ♥ lead is required.

The N/S compounded errors turned a plus score into a huge minus score. Declarer made 6♣ for a score of 1370, a total swing of 1570. If this was a team match, as the N/S pair, I would run and hide from my teammates!
1

#9 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,793
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2012-February-15, 03:05

There are good lessons in your post but perhaps not the lessons you intended. 6CX is cold, also after a heart lead from south.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#10 User is offline   32519 

  • Insane 2-Diamond Bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,454
  • Joined: 2010-December-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mpumalanga, South Africa
  • Interests:Books, bridge, philately

Posted 2012-February-15, 03:29

View Posthan, on 2012-February-15, 03:05, said:

There are good lessons in your post but perhaps not the lessons you intended. 6CX is cold, also after a heart lead from south.


Yeah, spot on. Don't know what I was thinking. After the lead is ruffed, the rest of the hand can be ruffed out.
1

#11 User is offline   manudude03 

  • - - A AKQJT9876543
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,626
  • Joined: 2007-October-02
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-15, 08:20

Well, since 32519 has posted the entire hand, how many of the passers are balancing with the West hand? What about the same hand without the Q?
Wayne Somerville
0

#12 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,455
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Enschede, the Netherlands
  • Interests:matching LaTeX delimiters :(

Posted 2012-February-15, 08:50

32519: I would open N with 3. I don't like 2 or 2.

manudude03: I wouldn't reopen after 2-p-2-p-p.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
0

#13 User is offline   bigbenvic 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 268
  • Joined: 2011-October-23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 2012-February-15, 08:50

Edit sorry i'm tired, removed rubbish post!

I wouldn't balance with west's hand which is why East has to act now. If no leaping michaels I'd have to bid 3 and hope to get in later.
1

#14 User is offline   32519 

  • Insane 2-Diamond Bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,454
  • Joined: 2010-December-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mpumalanga, South Africa
  • Interests:Books, bridge, philately

Posted 2012-February-15, 09:25

View Postmanudude03, on 2012-February-15, 08:20, said:

Well, since 32519 has posted the entire hand, how many of the passers are balancing with the West hand? What about the same hand without the Q?


This is a very interesting question. When South passes 2X it places him with a pre-empt. But the X from East also placed him with a genuine suit. How many? Most would expect to see 5. West has 2 which means North is void in the suit. So how many tricks are N/S expecting to make? Down 3X pockets +500 for E/W. Down 4X pockets +800 for E/W. Both and games are out of the question for E/W. From the bidding West knows that North must be loaded with . But the minor suit situation is not yet known. Pulling a probable +500 for an exploratory minor suit bid is no guarantee that a minor suit fit will be found leading to game. West has no idea of East’s powerhouse. From all the posts thus far, Justin’s makes the most sense. I have upvoted it as well.
1

#15 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,455
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Enschede, the Netherlands
  • Interests:matching LaTeX delimiters :(

Posted 2012-February-15, 09:37

View Post32519, on 2012-February-15, 09:25, said:

But the X from East also placed him with a genuine suit.

Not according to 99% of multi defences. Normal is

2-p-2-X = takeout of hearts (usually short)

although some people have been experimenting with

2-p-2-X = short (0-2) or long (5+) hearts. Anyway, even if you played this, you would assume partner has short hearts, rather than long.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
0

#16 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,963
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2012-February-15, 09:44

I would bid 3 on the East hand over 2 for fear of 2 being passed out and 50 per trick being very inadequate compensation.

I don't know if I am going to do better if 3 is passed out, but at least I gave it a shot.
0

#17 User is offline   JLOGIC 

  • 2011 Poster of The Year winner
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,002
  • Joined: 2010-July-08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-15, 10:06

Describing overcalling 3C as "giving it a shot" is an interesting choice.
0

#18 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,793
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2012-February-15, 10:16

I also like to live dangerously.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#19 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,987
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2012-February-15, 10:39

I wouldn't multi the S hand although I would open a weak 2. If I passed the south hand, 3rd in at green I'd have opened 3 or 4 with the N hand which would have set E a different but still awkward problem.

With the E hand I think I'd be capable of passing smoothly over 2, and that would be my choice, if I felt I couldn't do it smoothly, I'd have to take some action, what would depend on methods (what is 3 and how does partner bid over it without a heart stop particularly on a hand like this without spades ?).
0

#20 User is offline   JLOGIC 

  • 2011 Poster of The Year winner
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,002
  • Joined: 2010-July-08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-15, 13:12

So we are cold for a vulnerable 6C that we can easily bid and we have to defend 2H white on this hand all in the name of playing 4C as C+S instead of C+major? It makes no sense to me.
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users