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Strictly speaking a limit raise says "if you are minimum for your bidding, this raise is what I believe to be the limit of our combined strength". However, Agua is correct that the common usage of "limit raise" is "invitational raise".
Major suit raises Justin's and Fred's ideas combined
#21
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Posted 2012-February-26, 10:34
#22
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Posted 2012-February-26, 11:58
Someone kindly correct me if this an incorrect understanding of these terms.
It appears to me that Marty Bergen's name has been somehow attached to raises that were already part of bridge jargon (or did it take place the other way around?).
When ♥ is the agreed trump suit, then:
1. An invitational raise/limit raise and a Bergen 3♣ raise are the same thing, promising, 7-9 HCP and 4 card trump support.
2. A mixed raise and a Bergen 3♦ raise are the same thing, promising 10-12 HCP and 4 card trump support.
When ♠ are the trump suit, 3M-2=♦ now becomes the invitational raise/limit raise, and 3M-1=♥ now becomes the mixed raise.
Seems easy enough now, thanks.
It appears to me that Marty Bergen's name has been somehow attached to raises that were already part of bridge jargon (or did it take place the other way around?).
When ♥ is the agreed trump suit, then:
1. An invitational raise/limit raise and a Bergen 3♣ raise are the same thing, promising, 7-9 HCP and 4 card trump support.
2. A mixed raise and a Bergen 3♦ raise are the same thing, promising 10-12 HCP and 4 card trump support.
When ♠ are the trump suit, 3M-2=♦ now becomes the invitational raise/limit raise, and 3M-1=♥ now becomes the mixed raise.
Seems easy enough now, thanks.
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#23
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Posted 2012-February-26, 16:34
General usage is:
limit raise= invitational (10-12 supp points)
mixed raise= single raise equiv (6-9 supp points)
pre-emptive raise= junk (5- supp points)
Note that the supp points given are only approximate.
limit raise= invitational (10-12 supp points)
mixed raise= single raise equiv (6-9 supp points)
pre-emptive raise= junk (5- supp points)
Note that the supp points given are only approximate.
Wayne Somerville
#24
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Posted 2012-February-26, 20:33
Bergen Raises over 1M:
3♣: 7-9 support points, 4 trumps. Bergen called this a "constructive raise", others call it mixed.
3♦: 10-12 support points, 4 trumps. Invitational or limit raise.
1♠-3♥, in Bergen Raises, shows 12-15 support points, 4 trumps, and a side singleton or void somewhere.
Some people invert the meanings of the 3m bids. Bergen himself does not think that's a good idea, from what I've read.
3♣: 7-9 support points, 4 trumps. Bergen called this a "constructive raise", others call it mixed.
3♦: 10-12 support points, 4 trumps. Invitational or limit raise.
1♠-3♥, in Bergen Raises, shows 12-15 support points, 4 trumps, and a side singleton or void somewhere.
Some people invert the meanings of the 3m bids. Bergen himself does not think that's a good idea, from what I've read.
#25
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Posted 2012-February-26, 21:01
blackshoe, on 2012-February-26, 20:33, said:
Some people invert the meanings of the 3m bids. Bergen himself does not think that's a good idea, from what I've read.
He just doesn't know his place. It is OUR job to mess up the conventions and treatments which the greats invent.
I am going to enquire about certain pairs' agreements thus: "Is there anything you'd rather we didn't know about your system?" (Stefanie Rohan)
#26
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Posted 2012-February-27, 09:26
aguahombre, on 2012-February-26, 21:01, said:
He just doesn't know his place. It is OUR job to mess up the conventions an treatments which the greats invent.
Yes, what does he know about the way our minds work? I play 3M-2 as 7-10 and 3M-1 as 11/12, but I still call it Bergen when talking about it (not as explanation to a question after an alert, of course). Maybe if we have a "treatment" of someone's eponymous convention we should call it something different.
