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I saw how to set this from my hand How reasonable is seeing it from partners

#1 User is offline   dwar0123 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 02:04

Partner missed the setting defense, is it reasonable to see from her hand?



4 was lead to the queen. 3 rounds of trump(qjk) were pulled ending in declarer's hand(south followed twice and pitched 6 on 3rd). 8 was lead to south's king. South returned the 3 taken by declarer's ace. 4 taken my north's queen, this brings up this position.



How do you proceed and why.

P.S. I didn't point it out, I am just think it is an interesting beginner/intermediate defensive problem and am curious how much harder it is to see from the opposite hand.

Edit: fixed mistakes in hand
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#2 User is offline   Quartic 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 02:27

I think I lead a . (Would be nice to know what discards you play.) A is clearly futile, and a only gains us one more trick.

I'm playing partner for the Q and A.
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#3 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 02:32

I'm confused. I'm North, right? What happened to my K?
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#4 User is offline   BunnyGo 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 02:40

I'm confused too, why do I see declarer's hand?
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Posted 2012-February-14, 02:42

East is declarer no? He bid hearts first. Why do I see his cards? My head is spinning.

There are two standard ways of formatting a defensive hand:

-you are South (this is helpful because you are also South in play problems)
-declarer is South (see above)

Oh E opened 1 and W is declaring. we are sitting N and led 4. That still doesn't solve Antrax's dilemma.
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#6 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 03:34

Okay. So we're in 4 and managed to get two spade tricks. I'm assuming partner has the spade ace as declarer would probably try to drop an honor with it or at least not block the suit.
I wish I knew what my partner signaled in diamonds. I'm going to assume 3 was a game try based on a long suit, which suggests declarer is out of spades - with xxx of spades, he'd probably game-try there?
Meh, no matter how I cut it, if declarer takes a ruffing finesse against partner he's scoring at least 3 + 1 + 1 + 3 + 2 ruffs and makes. Also his club situation can't be too bad because he pulled trumps instead of trying to ruff a couple in dummy first.
So I declare this unbeatable and return a diamond, if he tries to ruff out the A and partner somehow has the J then he's a trick short because he doesn't know not to pull trumps before counting tricks.
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#7 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 09:35

Play a low club (the K should also work, but a low club gives you an extra chance).

To beat this hand, declarer must be either 3-4-2-4 or 3-4-1-5 without the Q. Force dummy to ruff a club. Now, when partner wins the A, the defense can cash a club.

Declarer has only 9 tricks - 4 hearts, 3 diamonds, a club and a club ruff. Declarer is threatening to establish a spade for his 10th trick. The defense has to establish its club trick to go with its 3 spade tricks before declarer gets his 10th trick.

Declarer could have always made the hand by ruffing 2 clubs in dummy (or by playing on spades before drawing trump, as spades are 3-3). But that is not our problem.

The extra chance is that declarer has the Q but panics and ruffs in dummy when you lead a low club from the K. It cannot hurt to lead a low club if your goal is to beat the hand.

P.S. I would have hidden this post, but I can't see how to do that. What happened to the hidden option?
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Posted 2012-February-14, 09:58

View PostArtK78, on 2012-February-14, 09:35, said:

Play a low club (the K should also work, but a low club gives you an extra chance).

To beat this hand, declarer must be either 3-4-2-4 or 3-4-1-5 without the Q. Force dummy to ruff a club. Now, when partner wins the A, the defense can cash a club.

Declarer has only 9 tricks - 4 hearts, 3 diamonds, a club and a club ruff. Declarer is threatening to establish a spade for his 10th trick. The defense has to establish its club trick to go with its 3 spade tricks before declarer gets his 10th trick.

Declarer could have always made the hand by ruffing 2 clubs in dummy (or by playing on spades before drawing trump, as spades are 3-3). But that is not our problem.

The extra chance is that declarer has the Q but panics and ruffs in dummy when you lead a low club from the K. It cannot hurt to lead a low club if your goal is to beat the hand.

P.S. I would have hidden this post, but I can't see how to do that. What happened to the hidden option?


To hide it either use "other styles--spoiler" or type (spoiler) (/spoiler) with "[ ]" brackets instead of "( )".
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#9 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 10:38

Why did declarer make a game try in clubs and not spades, if both suits are a whole bunch of x-s and spades is lower on this auction?
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#10 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 10:57

Looks like declarer will score 5 hearts (4 + 1 ruff), 3 diamonds, and 1 club for sure. So the things I know about the hand:
* I need partner to have the ace of spades.
* Declarer has a dummy entry, so leading a spade here establishes a spade winner for declarer, and the hand is over.
* If declarer has 4 diamonds, he has the J and it's all over.
* Nor can he have Jxx.
* If declarer has 2 dummy entries (which he does if he has a diamond and a club still, then he can get to dummy and take a ruffing finesse against partner in spades)
* If I lead a diamond, that's his second dummy entry.

------

at this point I know I have to lead a club. I'll lead the K because otherwise he might ruff the low club in dummy, pitch a spade from hand on a diamond if necessary, ruff a spade back to hand and I'd be endplayed. But we can still look further to see if this is hopeful at all or if we need to rethink and swindle declarer somehow...

------

So declarer must have started with a stiff diamond for us to have a (legit) chance.

Declarer's possible starting shapes with a stiff diamond are:

2416
3415
4414

If 4414, declarer has the SA since I've seen the other spades.
If 2416 and I play a club, his clubs in hand are established. Plus this would have been a super weird line for him and defense for pard.
If 3415, and I'm playing the K, I need partner to have the Q, but this is fine. He ruffs the CK, pitches a spade on a diamond and now takes a ruffing finesse against partner. Partner covers, but now declarer ruffs and endplays partner in clubs. GG us.
---------------

Ok, so DD we can't beat it. What are declarer's possible mistakes? With 2425 or 2434, he could play for the spade ace to come down in 3. In particular, with 2434, which doesn't seem unreasonable (since he played 84 of spades, and since he didn't try to establish clubs), he could combine chances for spade ace down in 3 or 3-3 diamonds. So I still have to lead a club I think. But I guess I'll lead low in case declarer has like Q10xx and misguesses or J10xx.
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#11 User is offline   dwar0123 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 13:42

View Postwyman, on 2012-February-14, 10:57, said:

So declarer must have started with a stiff diamond for us to have a (legit) chance.

Why must declarer have a stiff diamond for their to be a legit chance?

There is a line of defense that will set it from where we are now that declarer can not stop even with perfect play from here on out.
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#12 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 13:52

View PostArtK78, on 2012-February-14, 09:35, said:

Play a low club (the K should also work, but a low club gives you an extra chance).

To beat this hand, declarer must be either 3-4-2-4 or 3-4-1-5 without the Q. Force dummy to ruff a club. Now, when partner wins the A, the defense can cash a club.

Declarer has only 9 tricks - 4 hearts, 3 diamonds, a club and a club ruff. Declarer is threatening to establish a spade for his 10th trick. The defense has to establish its club trick to go with its 3 spade tricks before declarer gets his 10th trick.

Declarer could have always made the hand by ruffing 2 clubs in dummy (or by playing on spades before drawing trump, as spades are 3-3). But that is not our problem.

The extra chance is that declarer has the Q but panics and ruffs in dummy when you lead a low club from the K. It cannot hurt to lead a low club if your goal is to beat the hand.

OK. I didn't see that it is possible that I could be endplayed if declarer was 3-4-1-5. So forget the extra chance and play declarer for no cards in clubs. Play the K.

By the way, declarer with 3-4-1-5 chose a truly odd line. It would be much simpler to merely cash 3 top diamonds (pitching 2 spades) and lead a spade. Now declarer can cross ruff spades and clubs. But again, that is not our problem.
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#13 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 14:03

View Postdwar0123, on 2012-February-14, 13:42, said:

Why must declarer have a stiff diamond for their to be a legit chance?


You are right. Declarer may have started with 8xx/AKxx/xxx/Axx.

The good news is that a club is still needed.
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#14 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 15:21

View Postdwar0123, on 2012-February-14, 02:04, said:

Partner missed the setting defense, is it reasonable to see from her hand?



4 was lead to the queen. 3 rounds of trump(qjk) were pulled ending in declarer's hand(south followed twice and pitched 6 on 3rd). 8 was lead to south's king. South returned the 3 taken by declarer's ace. 4 taken my north's queen, this brings up this position.



How do you proceed and why.

P.S. I didn't point it out, I am just think it is an interesting beginner/intermediate defensive problem and am curious how much harder it is to see from the opposite hand.

Edit: fixed mistakes in hand


If partner has one diamond you can cut him off from dummy by playing the club K now. Then if partner has QTxx clubs or so he can maybe get some club tricks. But its a little bizarre as he could have just played spades before hearts. He can afford to ruff a spade high a diamond low and still draw trumps even if the spades are 4-2.

Or he can cash four minor suit tricks discarding spades and try for a cross ruff. That looks good too.

I dont see anyway to beat this if declarer has two diamonds, as he always has enough entries to get 5 trumps 3 diamonds one club and one spade. If I was playing teams I would try that. Even at MP it seems implausible that he has AKxxH and AQxxx club, so k club should be safe.

PS: This type of hand is a good advert for count signals. Even though you can work out what to do, if partner knew you started with two or four diamonds he is much more likely to realise the implications if he files that information away at trick one. Give partner count in diamonds and clubs and at this point there are only two layouts of relevance: Partner was Axx xx Jxxx Qxxx or Axx xx ?x Qxxxxx - but with 3433 he might have suggested NT.
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#15 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 15:38

View Postwyman, on 2012-February-14, 10:57, said:

Ok, so DD we can't beat it. What are declarer's possible mistakes? With 2425 or 2434, he could play for the spade ace to come down in 3. In particular, with 2434, which doesn't seem unreasonable (since he played 84 of spades, and since he didn't try to establish clubs), he could combine chances for spade ace down in 3 or 3-3 diamonds. So I still have to lead a club I think. But I guess I'll lead low in case declarer has like Q10xx and misguesses or J10xx.


Oh, good spot, I forgot partner pitched a club. But why would he pitch a club from 4 with useless diamonds. Declarer must be 34 or he just has tricks trivially. If partner has 5 clubs declarer is 3424, but now its cold. Whole hand bizarre. Maybe OP got partners pitch wrong?

PS: see wyman above, declarer could be 3433.
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#16 User is offline   dwar0123 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 16:13

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-February-14, 15:38, said:

Oh, good spot, I forgot partner pitched a club. But why would he pitch a club from 4 with useless diamonds. Declarer must be 34 or he just has tricks trivially. If partner has 5 clubs declarer is 3424, but now its cold. Whole hand bizarre. Maybe OP got partners pitch wrong?

PS: see wyman above, declarer could be 3433.

Declarer is cold if he just ruffs 2 clubs before pulling all the trump, but he didn't do that, not my problem. My problem is punishing him for it.

And to answer my original question, apparently not very reasonable to have expected partner to see this.

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#17 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 17:08

View Postdwar0123, on 2012-February-14, 16:13, said:

Declarer is cold if he just ruffs 2 clubs before pulling all the trump, but he didn't do that, not my problem. My problem is punishing him for it.

And to answer my original question, apparently not very reasonable to have expected partner to see this.


Well, we all returned the club K pretty much.
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#18 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 19:13

This thread reminds me why I have started the beginner/intermediate avoidable mistake thread focusing on (primarily) the importance of signaling agreements. Spot cards played along the way should have some meaning, that helps guide us through the hand. In a way, perhaps this hand shouldn't remind me of the importance of signalling, because you should get this one "right" at the point the problem is presented without input from your partner (and it looks like you got very little to none from him, since none of his carding other than club six discard and club 3 return is given). Either you can force a club trick, or declarer will make, so a club return at the point of the problem is absolutely clear. But lets examine the problem as stated, and how it would be approached in the real world by a partnership with some fundamental defensive agreements.


Trick one: 4 was lead to the queen. ---- No mention of which diamond partner played! Here, even if you play attitude at trick one, most people would have switched to "count" with those cards in dummy. So we would have a clue as to rather partner has and even or odd number of diamonds. If partner shows an odd number of cards, it has to be three (or possibly singleton) when south follows suit (not five). If even, it is two or four. The easy to deal with for the hand is if partner shows an odd number of diamonds (either by low playing standard, or high playing udca), then partner will have precisely three and declarer two diamonds.

Trick two-four: 3 rounds of trump(qjk) were pulled ending in declarer's hand (south followed twice and pitched 6 on 3rd).

Partner had two low trump spots, no mention if he played them high or low, and/or if playing them in one order or the other would have any significance. In the old days, one use to signal trump length, or use a trump signal to indicate the ability to ruff. Now days, many people use trump suit spot cards to signal suit preference. You also played three spades, could you have conveyed info with your sequence of spade play? On sequence for your heart 8-9-10, you might have been able to play the 8 first (s/p showing club value), then 9 (begin high-low with two remaining hearts) to signal original holding of 4 or perhaps -- depending upon your agreement, the T then 9, to signal an odd number of clubs (if your agreement it to signal length in dummy's short suit by opening leader).

PARTNER also discarded the 6 on the 3rd round of trumps. What kind of discards are you playing? With the 2. 3 and 5 of clubs are missing, so this is probably not partner's lowest club, which was confirmed on trick six. If you are playing Roman discards, this odd discard shows club value. If you are playing standard, the six is probably high, encouraging clubs. If udca it is probably discouraging clubs. IF you are playing lavinthal it is probably high showing the obvious spade values that partner ended up holding. If he had already signaled spade values in trumps (high then low with his two trump spots), then this discard would have some other meaning. Probably best is a substitute count in another suit. Since partner clearly should have given count in diamonds at trick one (either odd or even, depending on what he held), the substitute count would have been in clubs. The fact he discarded a club to show it is just a coincidence.

You could have any of these agreements, or others not mentioned. The point is, there was room to communicate about each of your holdings.

Trick Five: 8 was lead to south's king.
We assume you signaled your spade length. One concern here for your is can partner have a doubleton AK, in which you had better not pop up with the Q on the 2nd round. If partner signaled diamond length at trick one, and gave a substitute count in clubs along the way, then you will be well placed to get this right. Also, if your partner had AK doubleton, would he win the A or K at trick five?

Trick Six: South returned the 3 taken by declarer's ace.
Here south confirmed the 6 was indeed not low. Perhaps it was suit preference, since we see parnter holds the AK later in the hand. But a few observations and a real good question to be sure you understand. Do you play attitude leads here, where a low club by partner would show value? Do you play count type leads, where the 3 is original 4th best, or 3rd/4th best from remaining cards in clubs.

If the return is attitude, play your partner for the Q. Partner can not have QJ9, btw, and probably not J9 or QJ, as he would try to pin the ten in dummy with those holdings. And partner will know we hold 3 as with Qx we would have gone up on the first round, and with Qxx we would have given count. So partner will know one heart trick is all we need if the third spade is cashing.

Trick 4: taken my north's queen, this brings up this position, How do you proceed and why.

How would you have felt if declarer's hand was xxxx AKxx x AJxx and your jumping up with the Q handed him his contract after his blunder of a play? If you know partner has the spade Ace, and you signaled for clubs, it might be safe to duck this spade, and on some hands (4=4=1=4 or 4=4=2=3) absolutely necessary to do so. This is quite a problem here, so much so, that I would have probably ducked this spade to "be on the safe side." If partner signaled an odd number of diamonds at trick one, and gave substitute count in clubs later (say on his club discard) that showed an even number, I surely would have played low because partner will be either 2-2-3-6 in which case I have to duck, or 4=2=3=4 in which case declarer can make on ruffing finesse in spades if I go up, or on dropping my queen of spades if I play low.

However, after winning the spade queen, and not crashing partners ace on top of it, we know declarer started with 4, and we hope 3's. His diamond and club length might should be clear to us. For instance, if partner showed odd diamonds, we can be certain declarer's shape is 3=4=2=4, if partner showed even diamonds, we think declarer shape is either 3=4=4=2, in which case declarer will make (1, 4, 3, 1, 1 ruff) or 3=4=1=5. In the two cases where declarer has 4 or 5 clubs, partner will need the club queen, and we exit with the King, or a low . I am not the least worried about this....

View Postwyman, on 2012-February-14, 10:57, said:

at this point I know I have to lead a club. I'll lead the K because otherwise he might ruff the low club in dummy, pitch a spade from hand on a diamond if necessary, ruff a spade back to hand and I'd be endplayed. But we can still look further to see if this is hopeful at all or if we need to rethink and swindle declarer somehow...


If declarer has 3=4=2-4 there is no endplay if he discards his spade on the third round of diamonds and ruffs a spade (setting the Jack up), I will not endplayed when I win the king clubs, because my last card, the diamond 9, will be a winner when I get in. If declarer is 3=4=1=5 with the club jack, there is a killer endplay against both you and your partner, if you return the club king, it is your partner who is endplayed. The only way an effect endplay occurs on you is if declarer is 3=4=1=5 and partner has the QJxx, but here, partner has already blown the defense by discarding a club (he needs to keep all four clubs to avoid being enplayed himself. So practically speaking, I don't think an endplay is still in the cards, and the low club still has a very small chance of declarer with the Q ruffing in dummy. i would probably just return the club king, but I don't see a lot wrong with a low club either... sure on a low club, we might well lose our spade trick, but we end up taking a diamond (when partner showed odd number of diamonds) if declarer plays as wank proposed (assuming I understood his position).

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-February-14, 15:38, said:

Oh, good spot, I forgot partner pitched a club. But why would he pitch a club from 4 with useless diamonds.


Your partner does not know on the third round of trumps that you have four diamonds, and he can see four diamonds in dummy. If you had two or three diamonds, and partner throws a diamond from a four card suit, he is setting up the long diamond in dummy. Since you played the T at trick one, if partner had four small diamond, without the jack, he would know his diamonds are useless, and of course could throw one then.
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#19 User is offline   dwar0123 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 20:10

Lots of great advice on the importance of signalling, to bad it was just a random online pickup partnership like most of my games. Hard to develop a good understanding of defensive carding when you only play with people who are mostly oblivious to it(or assume you are). I was the partner and I tried to give correct signals(std) and attitude signals often work, though not in this case. Count was given at the table, but I felt that would make solving the problem to easy. I really wanted to focus on the idea that it was a race between setting up spades for declarer and clubs for the defenders and that having 1 ruff available is exactly the same as having 1 additional stopper, no more no less.

View Postinquiry, on 2012-February-14, 19:13, said:

If the return is attitude, play your partner for the Q. Partner can not have QJ9, btw, and probably not J9 or QJ, as he would try to pin the ten in dummy with those holdings. And partner will know we hold 3 as with Qx we would have gone up on the first round, and with Qxx we would have given count. So partner will know one heart trick is all we need if the third spade is cashing.

I was the partner and did have the qj :) Ah well, I knew I had to lead a club, I figured there was 0 chance of it successfully running to the 10 and lead low. I gave it little thought at the time, I would have buried it had I the 9 but I didn't see much future in doing that when I didn't have the 9. Giving it more thought I can see it can't hurt.
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#20 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-February-15, 08:15

View Postinquiry, on 2012-February-14, 19:13, said:

Your partner does not know on the third round of trumps that you have four diamonds, and he can see four diamonds in dummy. If you had two or three diamonds, and partner throws a diamond from a four card suit, he is setting up the long diamond in dummy. Since you played the T at trick one, if partner had four small diamond, without the jack, he would know his diamonds are useless, and of course could throw one then.


You lead the diamond 4, presumeably that means you lead low from 4 but middle/top from 3 so partner should know I have 4 diamonds. He could be worried that I have a stiff, i guess, but in that case its obviously impossible to beat this whether I pitch a diamond or not, as declarer will be short in spades.
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