[Statto]

gnasher, on 2012-February-11, 05:46, said:

Presumably you'd get to the five-level when responder has Ax Qxxx Axxx QJx. That seems a poor idea.

I think responder should sign off in 4♥ with that, unless the spots are good. But I like how you are discussing how J2NT could work even on this hand

In response to the OP, if you were to ditch J2NT, what would you use the 2NT bid for instead? Here's a quote from the other thread:

Vampyr, on 2012-February-09, 18:47, said:

2NT as a limit raise or better is playable, especially if you prefer not to play Bergen raises.

This seems to be a popular treatment in the UK (even from some who play Bergen raises). On grounds of frequency, you're much more likely to be wanting to discover if game is on than slam. Like mini-splinters, the bid is dual-purpose: either looking for game or looking for slam. (I wouldn't like to speculate how it fits into a 2/1 structure; I thought mini-splinters would slot in nicely but several posters pointed out how wrong I was about that.)

1♥-3♥ as a limit raise is of course old hat: it's much better played as a pre-emptive raise if 4th seat has not yet had an opportunity to bid.

[Zelandakh]

These hand types, where Responder has support and a side suit, come up often on these forums. Very often the solution is to start with a 2/1 and support later, even though this hides the 4th trump. My own methods do not have this option since a 2/1 is non-forcing. That is why new suits are natural wnere space allows. The flip-side is that a 1M opening is guaranteed to be unbalanced so the responses without shortage are automatically 5422 shape. Another aspect of the methods I posted that you missed is that 3NT is a spade cue after 3♠ in the given sequence - it is not necessary to start with 4♦. But I also use denial cue bids so the correct bid would have been 4♣ to ask for a club control. Obviously I chose not to go into such detail - I thought the important thing was the structure condensing the shortage-showing bids and also getting some strength limits into the auction, an area badly lacking in standard J2NT.

For the record I would expect my auction on the given pair of hands to be:-

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1NT = hearts and clubs or hearts, GF
3♥ = 15-17 bal with 5 hearts
... - 3♠ = slam try
3NT = accept, no spade control
... - 4♣ = have you got a club control?
4♦ = yes, but no diamond control
... - 4♠ = RKCB
5♥ = 0 or 3
... - 6♥

but I would also expect the opponents to be bidding with 9 spades and 8 diamonds.

[han]

jdeegan, on 2012-February-10, 23:18, said:

An historical note: JTB was invented about 50 years ago after a Unit game in Dallas. During the session Jake and Mary Zita came to our table and announced they were trying out a new convention whereby 3NT was a strong major raise. I was a new player at the time, and the only system I knew was K-S which used the then novel 5-card major requirement.
After the two boards were completed and before the next round was called, I mentioned to Jake that if one played 5-card majors, the only use for a natural 2NT was if one held a doubleton in the bid major, three cards in the other major, and 4-4 in the minors. One could easily handle this hand by temporizing at the 2 level in one of the minors. The rest is more or less history. I think this analysis still holds true, although the newfangled 2/1 greatly improves slam bidding on non-JTB auctions.

Nobody seems to have read this important historical note. It's not clear to me how Oswald Jacoby came in to the story, but it sounds like Jacoby 2NT should probably be called Jdeegan 2NT. Let's all agree to use this new name, I don't want to see any more threads titled "It's time to Dump Jacoby".

[fromageGB]

han, on 2012-February-13, 04:49, said:

Nobody seems to have read this important historical note. It's not clear to me how Oswald Jacoby came in to the story, but it sounds like Jacoby 2NT should probably be called Jdeegan 2NT. Let's all agree to use this new name, I don't want to see any more threads titled "It's time to Dump Jacoby".

You would prefer to dump JDeegan ?