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1C - 1D (0-7) structures without Kokish relay...

#1 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2012-February-04, 21:35

What's your favourite structure over 1 (16+) - 1 (0-7) that doesn't use 1 as a Kokish relay?

Ultra Club seems to use 1 / 1 as unbalanced, with the former as F1, but what the continuations?

Meckwell uses 1 / 1 as F1 as I recall.

IMP uses a similar approach as well, but they don't have any 5-7 hands in 1 response.

Alternatives or experiences with the above will be appreciated...
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#2 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2012-February-04, 21:41

See page 18 of: k-club.pdf

this is from Ken Allan, the author of The Deadly Endplay and the upcoming Shades of Gray: A Permberton Bridge Club mystery
'All you are is mean / And a liar, and pathetic, and alone in life / And mean, and mean, and mean, and mean ... And all you're ever gonna be is mean / Why you gotta be so mean?' Taylor Swift
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#3 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-February-05, 01:56

I once played something like this. I was trying to reconstruct what Meckwell was playing years ago. It worked well for most hands, but you can see places where there was lots of guessing...like when a fit wasn't found early. A lot of the idea was to show fit jumps...not so much to see how the hands mesh, but to see if a better fit could be found.

1H-4+ unbalanced
.....1S-no heart fit, 4+ spades, 0-7
..........1N-no fit
..........2m-canape, could be 5/5
..........2H-six hearts
..........2S-fit
..........2N-natural
..........3m-GF
..........3H-invite
.....1N-0-5, no fit, not 4 spades
.....2C-6-7, no fit
..........2D-waiting
...............2H-2-fit
...............2S-can't remember
...............2N-natural
...............3m-6m
.....2D-6-7, heart fit (we played this as 3)
..........2H-nf
...............2S-4S/3H-mandatory because opener could be 4/4 in the majors
.....2H-0-4, 4 hearts
.....2S-6-7, 5S/3H
.....2N-6-7, 4+ hearts (our twist I think)
.....3C-6-7, 3 hearts, 6 clubs
.....3D-6-7, 3 hearts, 6 diamonds
1S-4+, unbalanced
.....1N-0-4, no fit
.....2C-6-7, no fit
..........2D-waiting
...............2H-5+, no spade fit
...............2S-2 spades
...............2N-natural
...............3m-6m
..........2H-4+ hearts, probably forcing
.....2D-6-7, we played as 3-fit
.....2H-6-7, 3S/5H (not at all sure this was right)
.....2S-0-4, 4 spades
.....2N-we played as 6-7, 4 spades
.....3m-6-7, 3-fit and 6m
.....3H-6-7, 3-fit and 6H
1N-17-19
2m-natural, nf
2H-forced 2S
.....2S-forced
..........2N-balanced, GF systems on
..........3C-GF, 4M/6C?
..........3D-GF, 4M/6D?
..........3M-5m/5m, short M?
2S-just about GF, 3-suited, short in a major
.....2N-asking
..........forget continuations
.....3C-p/c
.....3D-transfer?
.....3H-transfer?
2N-22-23 balanced
3m-invite?
3M-invite?
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#4 User is offline   wclass___ 

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Posted 2012-February-05, 09:54

View Postakhare, on 2012-February-04, 21:35, said:

What's your favourite structure over 1 (16+) - 1 (0-7) that doesn't use 1 as a Kokish relay?


I am confident enough to say that Meckwell style is very close to optimal - better than Kokish or other sophisticated approach.

But i believe there could be done much about improving further bidding after 1-1-1/1/1NT/2m.
Seeking input from anyone who doesn't frequently "wtp", "Lol" or post to merely "Agree with ..." --sathyab
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#5 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-February-05, 11:24

View Postwclass___, on 2012-February-05, 09:54, said:

I am confident enough to say that Meckwell style is very close to optimal - better than Kokish or other sophisticated approach.

But i believe there could be done much about improving further bidding after 1-1-1/1/1NT/2m.


Can you fill in any of the gaps in the Meckwell-based structure I posted?

btw, Meckwell has a strong 2N opening so they don't have to account for that strength of their balanced hands.
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#6 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-February-05, 17:00

I like what Meckwell use. Kokish relay goes to:
1C - 1D
2H = KR

for them.

1H/1S is natural 4+, f1 after that 2c is 6-7 without supp and 2D is 5-7 with 3card supp.
Leak of that structure is that:
1C 1D
1M something (1N is 0-5any without 4+spades)
2minor is 5-4 either way, so you could end up in something very silly, especially at matchpoints.
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#7 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2012-February-06, 13:36

View Postakhare, on 2012-February-04, 21:35, said:

What's your favourite structure over 1 (16+) - 1 (0-7) that doesn't use 1 as a Kokish relay?

I used to play 1 as Kokish but I play an inverted version now. It's basically symmetric to show two strength ranges with the same hands except that you bid 1-1-1 with the weaker ones and make a natural, direct bid with the stronger ones (this caters to some GF hands in 1 that are able to show their relay shape opposite the minimum strong club opener). There are some tweaks to handle awkward shapes and we certainly aren't going to do as well on this auction stopping in a part score as standard players. Here's the basic idea:

1 (strong) - 1 (0-7, or rare GFs with )

1 min values: balanced, 1-suited, both minors (+ some stronger hands)
.......1 waiting with all 0-7's (*)
..............1N min NT
..............2 5+ wide ranging (could have extras with 54xx shapes)
..............2 5+
..............2M 6+
..............2N both minors
..............3+ various rare strong hands
1 min two-suited, not both minors (+ some strong hands)
1N 19-21
2 like a strong 2 in standard
2 5+ natural, extra values but not enough to GF
3 6+ natural, extra values (no 4cM)
3+ various rare strong hands

* - I use the responses over 1 besides 1 to show various GF hands. If you didn't want to include those in 1, you could use transfers starting at 1N to show single suited invites or some other two-suited scheme.
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#8 User is offline   Avoidance 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 07:08

1-1-1is the Sontag Relay not the Kokish Relay.
See "Power Precision: A Revolutionary System from a World Champion Player" 1979

EOK apparently prefers "Birthright" to "Kokish Relay", but the latter term is
certainly more appropriate to 1-1-2as described by Bluecalm
& played by Meckwell.
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#9 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 22:56

View Postakhare, on 2012-February-04, 21:35, said:

What's your favourite structure over 1 (16+) - 1 (0-7) that doesn't use 1 as a Kokish relay?

Ultra Club seems to use 1 / 1 as unbalanced, with the former as F1, but what the continuations?

Meckwell uses 1 / 1 as F1 as I recall.

IMP uses a similar approach as well, but they don't have any 5-7 hands in 1 response.

Alternatives or experiences with the above will be appreciated...


Ultra uses the Cohen - Berkowitz scheme for Matchpoint Pairs:

1 - 1 - 1 (1 RF): 4+ or 20+ hcp and balanced

1 = 0-7 hcp and 4+

1NT = 0-4 hcp and 0-3 (without an Ace)

2 = 5-7 hcp and 0-2

2= 5-7 and 3

2 = 5-7 hcp and 4

2= 3-5 hcp and 4 and unknown singleton


Edited: 2/13/12: Suggested by MARS

4 = 5-7 hcp and 6

4 = 5-7 hcp and 6

4 = 0-4 hcp and 6

4 = 0-4 hcp and 6


Similar scheme after 1 rebid by 1 Opener. Details in my posted system, see URL below.

However, we have new schemes for:

1 - 1 - 2 / 2 / 2NT / 3X

We haven't published this scheme yet, still in testing mode.
Ultra ♣: See Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf

C3: Copious Canape Club - Improved version of Ultra , notes not posted yet.

In progress: Canapé Attack System with Strong Diamond and 4-cd Major openings ...
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#10 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2012-February-11, 01:40

For a while I've been playing the Meckwell structure and I found it surprisingly efficient. It's much better than any other system I've played (except perhaps semipositives, but that's not relevant here).
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#11 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-February-11, 19:37

View PostFree, on 2012-February-11, 01:40, said:

For a while I've been playing the Meckwell structure and I found it surprisingly efficient. It's much better than any other system I've played (except perhaps semipositives, but that's not relevant here).


Would you post the continuations that you played? I know that the one I posted has gaps/inaccuracies.
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#12 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2012-February-11, 22:14

View Postrbforster, on 2012-February-06, 13:36, said:

I used to play 1 as Kokish but I play an inverted version now. It's basically symmetric to show two strength ranges with the same hands except that you bid 1-1-1 with the weaker ones and make a natural, direct bid with the stronger ones (this caters to some GF hands in 1 that are able to show their relay shape opposite the minimum strong club opener). There are some tweaks to handle awkward shapes and we certainly aren't going to do as well on this auction stopping in a part score as standard players. Here's the basic idea:

* - I use the responses over 1 besides 1 to show various GF hands. If you didn't want to include those in 1, you could use transfers starting at 1N to show single suited invites or some other two-suited scheme.


Your scheme looks interesting -- can be elaborate on the transfers?
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