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missexplanation not corrected before the lead

#1 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-February-04, 19:32



after the bidding but before the lead the bidding is asked.

2 is game forcing

2 natural positive

3 nat

4 is explained as cuebid by west, east doesn't say anything

NS lead a diamond and latter call director because 4 wasn't a cuebid as explained and 6NT goes down on a club lead.


Must east explain the missinformation from his partner?


Actually EW are not very experienced in serious torunaments and the correct answer for west about 4 s that no agreement is in place, cos there was actually no agreement but that's another thing I supose.
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#2 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-February-04, 20:40

When East believes that West has misexplained their partnership understanding (including when East believes they don't have an understanding, but West says they do) and EW are the declaring side, the director should be called, and the misexplanation corrected in his presence. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that East didn't correct the explanation because he thought "partner must be right", but that's not the correct approach.

The correct answer to your question is thus "yes, East must call the TD and correct the explanation". If the correct explanation is "we have no agreement", then that's what East should say. This is required by Law 75 and Law 20F5b.
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#3 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-February-05, 00:02

If East can show evidence of "no agreement" I agree, but the question is then: Why did East bid 4 in the first place?

I can't help feeling that East intended to show a side-suit and that he believed this to be the partnership understanding of his 4 bid.

East has unauthorized information that West believed differently, but is required by law (with TD present) to inform opponents of this difference, i.e that he believes West has given misinformation (with the "correct" information being that 4 shows a side-suit).
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#4 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-February-05, 00:36

East may have thought they had no agreement, and hoped partner would guess his meaning correctly. Or he may have thought they had the agreement that 4 shows a side suit. In either case, he should correct the misinformation.

It's also possible that he wasn't sure what their agreement was, and took a chance. When he heard partner's explanation, he assumed that partner must be correct, and that he'd actually misbid. If this was truly the case, then I suppose his silence is appropriate. But usually it's best to trust yourself -- if you thought you had an agreement at the time you bid, stick to your convictions. One of the reasons why the TD should be called is so that he can sort this all out.

If EW are not very experienced, and they're just playing "Standard", I think East probably bid correctly, and common treatments of 2 followons are implicitly part of their agreements. In this case, West's 3 doesn't set trumps, so how can they start cue bidding already? West would be correct if he'd [i]jumped[i] to 3 -- that typically shows a self-sufficient suit, sets trumps, and demands that partner start cue bidding. However, we haven't been told where this took place, so I can't be sure what the standard treatments are in their area.

#5 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2012-February-05, 02:28

Noone has mentioned one of the G-words: "gerber".
You have to bid 4NT before bidding a suit slam - similarly you have to bid 4 before bidding 6NT.
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#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-February-06, 18:51

noone has mention what would you rule then, but I supose it depends on jurisdiction
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#7 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-February-06, 19:07

The question you asked was whether East had to say something. Whatever jurisdiction, if it was MI then yes he does. If it was not MI, ie it was their agreement, no he doesn't. The difficult cases are where it is not clear.

You actually say there is no agreement. That is MI and should be corrected.

Whatever the jurisdiction, the ruling would depend on the hands, which you have not given us. Would the defence lead a club if they were told that the correct explanation of 4 was "no agreement"? Let us say looking at the hands you think they would about one time in four. Then the ruling would be:

In the ACBL, for both sides:
6NT -1, NS +50

Elsewhere, for both sides:
.. 30% of 6NT -1, NS +50
+ 70% of 6NT =, NS -990

Suppose it is less clear and the diamond lead still looks pretty likely, so they might lead a club one time in ten or so. Then:

In the ACBL, for E/W:
6NT -1, NS +50

In the ACBL, for N/S:
6NT =, NS -990

Elsewhere, for both sides:
.. 15% of 6NT -1, NS +50
+ 85% of 6NT =, NS -990
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#8 User is offline   jh51 

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Posted 2012-February-08, 16:02

View Postpran, on 2012-February-05, 00:02, said:

East has unauthorized information that West believed differently, but is required by law (with TD present) to inform opponents of this difference, i.e that he believes West has given misinformation (with the "correct" information being that 4 shows a side-suit).

I don't understand the remark about East having UI, and its relevance to the whole issue. From the OP, it would seem that any information about what his partner thought the bid meant was gleaned after the final pass when one of the opponents asked for an explanation of the bidding. East is about to lay down his hand as dummy. What does it mean for someone whose primary job for the next several minutes is to turn cards at his partners behest to have UI?
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#9 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-February-08, 16:09

View PostFluffy, on 2012-February-04, 19:32, said:


Must east explain the missinformation from his partner?


Actually EW are not very experienced in serious torunaments and the correct answer for west about 4 s that no agreement is in place, cos there was actually no agreement but that's another thing I supose.


Yes. He should say (if this is true) "we haven't discussed the meaning of 4C"
As for whether to adjust that depends on the hands.
They might be less likely to lead a club through a natural club bid than through a club cue bid.
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#10 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2012-February-09, 03:17

View Postjh51, on 2012-February-08, 16:02, said:

I don't understand the remark about East having UI, and its relevance to the whole issue. From the OP, it would seem that any information about what his partner thought the bid meant was gleaned after the final pass when one of the opponents asked for an explanation of the bidding. East is about to lay down his hand as dummy. What does it mean for someone whose primary job for the next several minutes is to turn cards at his partners behest to have UI?

It depends on when the 4 bid was explained. If the 4 bid was explained after the auction then you are correct and the UI is irrelevant. If however, it was explained before the 6NT bid, one could imagine that the jump to 6NT (rather than showing the number of aces) was inspired by the UI.

Rik
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#11 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-February-09, 10:49

View PostTrinidad, on 2012-February-09, 03:17, said:

It depends on when the 4 bid was explained.

The OP said the explanations were given "after the bidding but before the lead".

#12 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2012-February-09, 15:13

View Postbarmar, on 2012-February-09, 10:49, said:

The OP said the explanations were given "after the bidding but before the lead".

Thanks.

It is very easy to miss the first line of any story. My brain must have automatically assumed that it was "Once upon a time".

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
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#13 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2012-February-09, 16:47

View Postpran, on 2012-February-05, 00:02, said:

If East can show evidence of "no agreement" I agree, but the question is then: Why did East bid 4 in the first place?

I can't help feeling that East intended to show a side-suit and that he believed this to be the partnership understanding of his 4 bid.

East has unauthorized information that West believed differently, but is required by law (with TD present) to inform opponents of this difference, i.e that he believes West has given misinformation (with the "correct" information being that 4 shows a side-suit).


How exactly do you recommend East shows evidence of "no agreement", Sven? If he hands the TD a blank piece of paper and says "here are our agreementa about the meaning of Responder's rebids after a 2 Opener", is this sufficient evidence for you as TD? Alternatively, if he hands his 66-page system file to the TD and says "this sequence is not mentioned", would you as TD read through all 66 pages to check this assertion?
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#14 User is offline   AlexJonson 

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Posted 2012-February-09, 17:38

This is fun, but it is perhaps obvious that 4c was a misbid.
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#15 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-February-09, 18:39

Perhaps it isn't. It seems obvious to me that he had clubs, so he bid clubs.
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#16 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-February-10, 02:12

View Postjallerton, on 2012-February-09, 16:47, said:

How exactly do you recommend East shows evidence of "no agreement", Sven? If he hands the TD a blank piece of paper and says "here are our agreementa about the meaning of Responder's rebids after a 2 Opener", is this sufficient evidence for you as TD? Alternatively, if he hands his 66-page system file to the TD and says "this sequence is not mentioned", would you as TD read through all 66 pages to check this assertion?

How he will (or can) show evidence is East's problem.

A blank piece of paper is no evidence of anything at all, and it is certainly not my job to read through 66 pages.

Unless he can convince me that he has no agreement I shall rule that he has (at least in his own opinion). And I am not easy to convince in cases like this: I just do not believe that a player deliberatly makes a call without believing/hoping that his partner will understand (unless of course when he is psyching or has accidentally misbid).
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#17 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-February-10, 02:21

Where in the Laws, Sven, does it say the TD is supposed to sit on his ass while players bring evidence to him?

If you ask a player for evidence of a negative, and he hands you 66 (or 800!) pages of system notes and says "this is all our agreements; the one in question is not in here", then either you accept his word on that (in which case why not accept his word without a stack of paper?!) or you read through the 66 (or 800!) pages until you've verified to your satisfaction that he's telling the truth. To do otherwise is IMO at the very least unprofessional.

You had better not ever tell me "your opinion is that you have an agreement here". I don't care who you are, you don't get to tell me what my opinion is.
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#18 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-February-10, 02:22

View Postjh51, on 2012-February-08, 16:02, said:

I don't understand the remark about East having UI, and its relevance to the whole issue. From the OP, it would seem that any information about what his partner thought the bid meant was gleaned after the final pass when one of the opponents asked for an explanation of the bidding. East is about to lay down his hand as dummy. What does it mean for someone whose primary job for the next several minutes is to turn cards at his partners behest to have UI?

Anything West has told opponents as explanation of East's call is UI to East (but East must inform opponents if he thinks that West has given incorrect information). This can be highly relevant if the alleged misinformation results in the auction being continued as permitted in Law 21B1. Once East becomes Dummy his possession of UI is of course no longer of any interest.
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#19 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-February-10, 02:31

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-February-10, 02:21, said:

Where in the Laws, Sven, does it say the TD is supposed to sit on his ass while players bring evidence to him?

If you ask a player for evidence of a negative, and he hands you 66 (or 800!) pages of system notes and says "this is all our agreements; the one in question is not in here", then either you accept his word on that (in which case why not accept his word without a stack of paper?!) or you read through the 66 (or 800!) pages until you've verified to your satisfaction that he's telling the truth. To do otherwise is IMO at the very least unprofessional.

You had better not ever tell me "your opinion is that you have an agreement here". I don't care who you are, you don't get to tell me what my opinion is.

East will have to show me (convincingly) exactly where in his system description the call would have been described if it were described, and show that there is a "hole" in the system description.

I shall never tell you what your opinion is, you will have to tell me why you make calls for which you have no agreements. And you had better have a reason that I can believe.
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#20 User is offline   PeterAlan 

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Posted 2012-February-10, 04:24

View Postpran, on 2012-February-05, 00:02, said:

If East can show evidence of "no agreement" I agree, but the question is then: Why did East bid 4 in the first place?

The simple answer to this is because he had to bid something. The problem he has is that, whatever he bids next, you're going to rule that he has an agreement about it.
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