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Convention Cards

#41 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2012-February-06, 18:05

Yeah, my Pre-Alert was "1NT is 10-12, all seats, all vulnerabilities, and our opening 2 bids are highly variable in playing strength - 6-12 High, but could be much weaker and much stronger than yours." And my explanation on the Alert was "All hands with 6-12 HCP and a 5+ card suit are opened. 95% of them are opened 2 of the longest suit - our choice with 5-5 and 6-6." I added that last when somebody, quite reasonably, got upset when the first two sentences didn't make him understand that AQJxxx -- JTxxxx 7 was a 2 opener, and misdefended.

If they asked about the other 5%, I'd tell them :-)
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#42 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-February-06, 19:46

Even if you exchange cards and hold on to them, I think it will usually be pretty obvious to everyone when you look at it. So I don't think there's that much UI difference between exchanging them and asking for the card when you need it. Unless you look at the card at other random times, to mask the times you actually care.

#43 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-February-06, 22:22

Once at a tournament, during an auction, I asked to see the CC of an op who is a multiple national champion. The reply was "just ask me". I had worried that a spoken question might pass information to partner or the other op ... but I went ahead and asked, figuring he knew what he was talking about. Nothing came of it, but I still wonder what was proper.
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#44 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-February-06, 22:59

What was proper? You asked to see his card, he should have shown it to you. Did he have one?
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#45 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-February-06, 23:00

View Postbillw55, on 2012-February-06, 22:22, said:

Once at a tournament, during an auction, I asked to see the CC of an op who is a multiple national champion. The reply was "just ask me". I had worried that a spoken question might pass information to partner or the other op ... but I went ahead and asked, figuring he knew what he was talking about. Nothing came of it, but I still wonder what was proper.

Yeh, not clear what was proper from your anecdote. But our experience playing against such caliber of player is that when they deviate from exact protocol it doesn't come back to bite us in the butt if we go along.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#46 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 04:47

View Postbillw55, on 2012-February-06, 22:22, said:

Once at a tournament, during an auction, I asked to see the CC of an op who is a multiple national champion. The reply was "just ask me". I had worried that a spoken question might pass information to partner or the other op ... but I went ahead and asked, figuring he knew what he was talking about. Nothing came of it, but I still wonder what was proper.

I think the proper response to this would be to say "Director please".

Forcing you to ask instead of reading the card gives him an unfair advantage. It may not be a very big advantage, but it's still significant. I don't care how famous he is - he should bring a convention card. If he has, for some reason, not got one, his first word should be "Sorry", not a condescending instruction to do something you don't want to do.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#47 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 04:51

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-February-06, 23:00, said:

Yeh, not clear what was proper from your anecdote. But our experience playing against such caliber of player is that when they deviate from exact protocol it doesn't come back to bite us in the butt if we go along.

If you ask a question and that tells the opponents something about your hand, are you hoping that they'll disregard the information?

If you ask a question and that tells your partner something about your hand, are you hoping that partner will ignore his obligations under the rules about UI?
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#48 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 05:57

View Postgnasher, on 2012-February-07, 04:51, said:

If you ask a question and that tells the opponents something about your hand, are you hoping that they'll disregard the information?


Do you think that this is a deliberate tactic by the player alluded to and others?
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#49 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 07:28

Yes, he had a CC present. The card was not situated in such a way that I could just look at it, so I asked.

Clearly it was not a tactic. Maybe he just wanted to keep the game moving or something.

To be specific, he had opened 1 on my left and now his partner was about to declare some other contract. I held a club suit that I was considering leading, and wanted to investigate the meaning of his opening bid prior to doing so - specifically, implied length. After our brief (and entirely amicable) exchange, I did ask aloud, although this could conceivably be a clue about my hand to both partner and declarer. There was no subsequent indication that the play was affected in any way. Although even if there was, I am certain I would not have had the nerve to call the director.
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#50 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 08:54

View PostVampyr, on 2012-February-07, 05:57, said:

Do you think that this is a deliberate tactic by the player alluded to and others?

I doubt if it's often done in order to gain advantage. In fact, it's not often done at all, is it? I've never had someone refuse to hand me their convention card.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#51 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 09:01

View Postgnasher, on 2012-February-07, 08:54, said:

I doubt if it's often done in order to gain advantage. In fact, it's not often done at all, is it? I've never had someone refuse to hand me their convention card.

To be clear, he did not refuse. It was simply not immediately convenient for him, so invited me to ask instead. I am a very low ranking player so he may even have thought I was unaware that I could ask, and was trying to be helpful. Probably if I had asked again for the CC, he would have rummaged it out (as I recall it was partly obstructed, such as under a scoresheet or the like).

I really don't want to leave the impression that there was anything deliberate or underhanded on his part.
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#52 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 11:12

View Postbillw55, on 2012-February-07, 09:01, said:

I am a very low ranking player so he may even have thought I was unaware that I could ask, and was trying to be helpful.

That seems unlikely. 99% of the time, people ask -- you would have to be a total newbie to not have encountered this numerous times. Players who request the CC are typically MORE experienced.

I think it was really just that he didn't feel like digging it out, and was confident the UI wouldn't make a difference. If a player did this, and then called the director because he felt your partner took advantage of the UI from the question, that would be an incredibly dickish move, IMHO.

#53 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 12:44

When I first started playing duplicate bridge, a husband and wife who ran a local bridge club took an interest in me. They explained the proper procedures such as how to properly fill out a convention card and asking to see an opponent's convention card. So, although I was truly a low ranking player (less than 10 masterpoints at the time) I knew enough to ask to see an opponent's convention card.

Of course, as I have mentioned before, this was in the days when convention cards were made of stone. So it was more inconvenient to lug them around and show them to your opponents. :)
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#54 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-February-07, 17:34

View Postgnasher, on 2012-February-07, 08:54, said:

I doubt if it's often done in order to gain advantage. In fact, it's not often done at all, is it? I've never had someone refuse to hand me their convention card.

This might have happened in the ACBL though... I remember one player at the Nationals in Hawaii who would snatch her convention card away from me as soon as I put it down on the table, and place it out of my reach. So she did hand me her convention card, in fact multiple times.

It was not that unusual to find people who expected you to look at the card and then return it to them.

But no, I guess actually refusing is very rare.
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#55 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2012-February-08, 03:45

View PostVampyr, on 2012-February-07, 17:34, said:

I guess actually refusing is very rare.

Not entirely unknown, though. I still remember playing in a European Pairs championship many years ago against perhaps the most famous French international of all time (maybe equally well-known for his cigars as his bridge) who seemed delighted to tell me that he didn't have a convention card because they just played normal bridge. He looked round at his crowd of kibbitzers for approval and seemed to get it. I just thought he was a ch**t, but being rather less experienced at the time I did nothing about it.
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#56 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-February-08, 05:21

View Postbarmar, on 2012-February-07, 11:12, said:

If a player did this, and then called the director because he felt your partner took advantage of the UI from the question, that would be an incredibly dickish move, IMHO.


I think you would be covered under Law 23.
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#57 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-February-08, 07:04

View PostWellSpyder, on 2012-February-08, 03:45, said:

Not entirely unknown, though. I still remember playing in a European Pairs championship many years ago against perhaps the most famous French international of all time (maybe equally well-known for his cigars as his bridge) who seemed delighted to tell me that he didn't have a convention card because they just played normal bridge. He looked round at his crowd of kibbitzers for approval and seemed to get it. I just thought he was a ch**t, but being rather less experienced at the time I did nothing about it.

Not having a convention card is obviously a common occurrence (how common depends on the event), but they were talking about having a convention card and refusing to show it. I don't see the point of it, why would I complete a CC and bother bringing it if I was going to hide it or never show it to anyone?
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#58 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-February-08, 07:23

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-February-08, 05:21, said:

I think you would be covered under Law 23.

No entirely. Their breach of the rules doesn't entitle us to just ignore Laws 16 and 73. If partner misused the UI, we might still suffer (and deserve) an adjusted score.

The proper procedure is for partner to take an action that is legal under Law 16 (ie not suggested ... by the UI), then the director to adjust the score on the grounds that partner's actions were unfairly constrained.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#59 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-February-08, 10:40

View PostVampyr, on 2012-February-07, 17:34, said:

It was not that unusual to find people who expected you to look at the card and then return it to them.

It's considered normal behavior in the ACBL. You ask for the CC, look for what you're interested in, then give it back.

As has been mentioned above, the reverse side of the CC is often the player's personal score.

#60 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-February-08, 11:50

View Postbarmar, on 2012-February-08, 10:40, said:

It's considered normal behavior in the ACBL. You ask for the CC, look for what you're interested in, then give it back.


One thing I did not include in the initial rant was that quite often CC's are little cheat sheets of partnerships. There is a H and W partnership around here. He is a systems nut. She complies. Much of her cc is nothing more than a compendium of what his homemade sequences mean. I guess she thinks the front side of the convention card is the right place for them.

During a match, I have wanted to take her cc and keep it for the duration to prevent a look-see. :D
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