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What's the scientific way? Or do you just have to blast?

#1 User is offline   bd71 

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Posted 2012-January-27, 22:51



IMPs. Mainstream 2/1 agreements, but NOT including Puppet.

Is there science to help you discover if you have two quick heart losers?

What is your bid?

Alternatively, if Puppet is on, what is the science if partner admits to holding (a) 5 spades, or (b) 4 spades.
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#2 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-January-27, 23:48

KISS


3c then 4c as a slam try.

option two is just bid 6nt.
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#3 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-28, 01:18

You could easily be missing two aces, or an ace and two kings. Odds are there's duplication in diamonds too. All of those suggest that perhaps slam has poor chances. Still, I like mike's 3, then 4. Partner's reaction to that should clarify things a lot, and if 3 is Puppet Stayment, you'll find your spade fit, if it's there. The magic hand is something like

--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#4 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2012-January-28, 01:49

View Postmike777, on 2012-January-27, 23:48, said:

KISS


3c then 4c as a slam try.

option two is just bid 6nt.


Love your first option, option two not so much. Too often 6NT will be down when 6 (or 6!) makes. I might shoot 6NT at match points if swinging.
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#5 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2012-January-28, 03:07

With my regular partners I'd transfer to and figure out if we're missing 2 Aces. Without, I'd just Gerber.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
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#6 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2012-January-28, 05:48

Statistically this is a 6 or 7 hand (6 losers opposite an average of 6 cover cards). Transfer to clubs and later RKCB. Lacking the methods just bid 6C.
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#7 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-January-28, 09:40

View Postbd71, on 2012-January-27, 22:51, said:



Is there science to help you discover if you have two quick heart losers?


No science that I know of for determining 2 quick losers in a side suit after slam exploration in a minor and you find out you have 4 of the 5 key cards combined.
[ For example there is no 5-of-trump equivalent as in Major suit slam exploration ]

Opener may be:
A J x
J x x x
A K Q x
A Q
Don Stenmark
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( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#8 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 00:11

View Postbd71, on 2012-January-27, 22:51, said:

Is there science to help you discover if you have two quick heart losers?

If available, you could transfer to , then ask for keycards in , and if the response showing 3 is 5, pass it. If partner shows 4+ keys, bid 6 and/or 6NT, depending what 6 means and whether partner passes it. If the response showing 3 keys isn't 5, this probably won't work B-)
A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem Albert Einstein
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#9 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 02:19

If you have a way to show a slammish minor one-suiter at the 4-level (perhaps 3C-then-4C, perhaps a 3S transfer, etc.), then of course there is science to identify two heart losers: it is called cuebidding. After the 4C bid, partner bids 4D, you bid 4S if you show 2nd round controls freely or 5C if you don't, partner will know whether there is a hole in hearts and sign off or keep exploring accordingly.

Two fast heart losers is sufficiently remote that, absent fancy agreements, a garden variety ace-ask is the practical approach.
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#10 User is offline   mich-b 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 06:16

View PostFree, on 2012-January-28, 03:07, said:

With my regular partners I'd transfer to and figure out if we're missing 2 Aces. Without, I'd just Gerber.


Since you hold the K , what's the difference? Why can't you Gerber anyway?
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#11 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 15:36

+1 to 3C then 4C.

But I like 3S forces 3N, and 4C/4D shows slammish in C/D (or D/C, whichever you decide). This also frees up a direct 3N for some artificiality, which I know you love :P, as now you can pass the forced 3N.
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#12 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 19:11

What is all this Gerber over 2NT? Why can't we just bid 4 to set trumps and initiate cue bidding?
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#13 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 20:36

View Postnigel_k, on 2012-January-29, 19:11, said:

What is all this Gerber over 2NT? Why can't we just bid 4 to set trumps and initiate cue bidding?


Doggone radical young whippersnappers think they know everything. 4 has to be Gerber because, well, because Johnny Gerber said so! So there! <splutter, splutter>

:P :P
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#14 User is offline   Xiaolongnu 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 01:01

I second 3 rebid 4. I also foresee an impossible bid sequence. What does 3 mean in this sequence. It would be best in the agreement that it means NOTHING, an impossible bid. Partner would probably bid 3NT, then bid 4. Now (a reliable) partner would think why did you insert a random looking bid in the middle and realize that this is real clubs instead of aces. Which of the two methods to use depends on your exact agreements. The point is to choose the line that you do not have an agreement with and which is illogical to pass prematurely. Continue with cue bids.

Of course, this really depends on whether you know your partner well enough. My partner and I are deep fans of impossible bids, we both like it naturally, we have an affinity with it, and we love to use it for those none of the above situations.
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 05:48

View PostXiaolongnu, on 2012-January-30, 01:01, said:

I second 3 rebid 4. I also foresee an impossible bid sequence. What does 3 mean in this sequence. It would be best in the agreement that it means NOTHING, an impossible bid.

If playing regular Stayman then 2NT - 3; 3 - 3 typically shows 4 spades and 5+ hearts (Smolen) while 2NT - 3; 3 - 3 agrees hearts. Thus it is not an impossible bid.

I like to play 2NT - 3 as showing clubs (6+ or 5-5 minors) and 2NT - 4 as showing diamonds. This means that Opener is allowed to show club support over 3 and also keeps 2NT - 3NT natural (no beers on me!)

If playing Puppet and choosing to start with 3, then after a 3 response I would have a choice between 4 (natural) and 4 (slam try in spades). Neither of these really helps here so starting out with 3 seems best.

Of course if Opener can start with a strong club things get alot simpler. For my methods it would start 1 - 1; 1NT - 2 where we have shown a 1-suited hand with clubs and 9+. Opener can now relay further with 2, set clubs and start a cue auction with 3, or (unlikely) just ask for key cards without any further investigation by bidding 4.
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#16 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-January-31, 03:06

View PostXiaolongnu, on 2012-January-30, 01:01, said:

I also foresee an impossible bid sequence. What does 3 mean in this sequence. It would be best in the agreement that it means NOTHING, an impossible bid.

3 can be used to show 5 and 4 ; such a hand may be hard to deal with otherwise.
A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem Albert Einstein
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#17 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-January-31, 07:11

View PostStatto, on 2012-January-31, 03:06, said:

3 can be used to show 5 and 4 ; such a hand may be hard to deal with otherwise.


"Better" (if you don't mind the memory strain) is to use 3N for that hand and 3S relays to 3N to play or to make a 1-or-2-minor slam try.

But the 5S/4H hand is a nonissue for OP in a non-puppet context, as he can use Smolen after 3C-3D.

[unless I'm mistaken, and the sequence you're talking about is 2N-3C; 3S. The one I'm talking about is 2N-3S.]
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#18 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2012-January-31, 07:20

Put me into the blast 6 camp

On this hand I think that the benefits of a quick, uninformative auction more than outweigh delicate slam explorations.

Even if we occasionally bid to a bad slam, the opponents still need to set us which is a lot harder if I just punt...
Alderaan delenda est
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#19 User is offline   dcohio 

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Posted 2012-February-08, 11:30

View Postwyman, on 2012-January-31, 07:11, said:

"Better" (if you don't mind the memory strain) is to use 3N for that hand and 3S relays to 3N to play or to make a 1-or-2-minor slam try.


This is what I use with my partner and we love it. 2N-3N shows a 5S4H hand with game values, it is then openers choice to pass or correct to a major.

2NT-3S forces opener to rebid 3NT. Responder either passes or bids the following:

4C: slam try in clubs, opener can bid 4N/5c to sign-off otherwise answers RKC for clubs
4D: slam try in diamonds, as above
4H: 5/5+ minors, shortness in hearts. Opener can bid 4N/5m to sign off, otherwise answers 6-keycard blackwood for both minors
4S: 5/5+ minors, shortness in spades, as above
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#20 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2012-February-08, 11:49

View Postdcohio, on 2012-February-08, 11:30, said:

This is what I use with my partner and we love it. 2N-3N shows a 5S4H hand with game values, it is then openers choice to pass or correct to a major.

2NT-3S forces opener to rebid 3NT. Responder either passes or bids the following:

4C: slam try in clubs, opener can bid 4N/5c to sign-off otherwise answers RKC for clubs
4D: slam try in diamonds, as above
4H: 5/5+ minors, shortness in hearts. Opener can bid 4N/5m to sign off, otherwise answers 6-keycard blackwood for both minors
4S: 5/5+ minors, shortness in spades, as above


Is it slightly better to switch the meanings of 4m to right side the contract?
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