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Showing 2 Suited Hands How many ways are there?

#2 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 06:18

How many ways are there for showing a 2 suited hand?

1) As opener?
2) As responder?
3) As overcaller?
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#3 User is online   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 08:11

As opener - well, the only one I know of is Muiderberg (opening 2H/2S to show 5+ of that suit and 4+ in a minor). Some people also play 2NT = weak both minors.

I have developed a 2C opener and set of responses to show all 5+-5+ hands (18-21, because it was part of a "2D = strongest bid" system). It was useful in that after opener goes 1x-(jump)y, he has to have exactly 5-4. Outside of that, just bid lots of times :)

As responder - I don't know any! Though I recall seeing one expert pair on vugraph who used 1m-2H as both majors, weak. Generally you would just bid twice, provided you were strong enough.

As an overcaller, my preferred methods are Michaels/UNT (1M-2M = other M unspecified m; 1m-2m = both M; 1m-2NT = other m and unspecified M; 1M-2NT = both m), where the bid is "weak or strong". There's also things like CRO aka Wemble aka some version of Ghestem, and a few more versions of Ghestem, which use cuebid/2NT/3C to show the different combinations of suits. Their advantage is that the suits are specified straight away - their disadvantage is that the natural 3C jump overcall is lost.

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#4 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 09:12

For us, and only addressing the first bid itself:
As opener, none.
As responder, one (2NT by a passed hand).
As overcaller, several -- the exact number depends on what the opening bid was.
As advancer to Partner's overcall or double, there are fit jumps and responsive doubles.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#6 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 09:32

1) As opener, how about Flannery to show a major suit 2 suited hand?
2) As responder, how about Smolen when responding to an opening bid of 1NT?
What about the sequence 1X, (1Y), X (showing the two unbid suits?). While technically not a 2 suited hand, you are showing the 2 unbid suits as responder.

There must be loads of other examples.
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#7 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 10:45

1. RCO Twos, or variations on that theme.
2. Fit jumps.
3. Hardy's method: top and bottom cue bids, ELC doubles, jumps in the other minor or 2 in the case of a 1 opening, Unusual NT.

Amalya Kearse's book on conventions has quite a few different ways. So does the Nicu Kantar four volume set.
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Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 10:55

View Post32519, on 2012-January-22, 09:32, said:

1) As opener, how about Flannery to show a major suit 2 suited hand?
2) As responder, how about Smolen when responding to an opening bid of 1NT?
What about the sequence 1X, (1Y), X (showing the two unbid suits?). While technically not a 2 suited hand, you are showing the 2 unbid suits as responder.

There must be loads of other examples.

Flannery would definitely be a common one. I restricted my post to bids we use.
Yes, there are loads of examples for opener and for responder if the thread extends to combinations (two steps or more) of bids (smolen, etc.)
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#9 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 11:41

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-January-22, 09:12, said:

As responder, one (2NT by a passed hand).
As overcaller, several -- the exact number depends on what the opening bid was.


Can you kindly provide more info here? Especially regarding the 2NT by a passed hand. An example auction to illustrate will be helpful.

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-January-22, 10:55, said:

I restricted my post to bids we use. Yes, there are loads of examples for opener and for responder if the thread extends to combinations (two steps or more) of bids (smolen, etc.)


This is easy enough where either opener or responder bids 2 different suits as the auction continues. How would this be affected by 4th Suit Forcing where the 4th suit is artificial?
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Posted 2012-January-22, 11:52

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-January-22, 10:45, said:

1. RCO Twos, or variations on that theme.
2. Fit jumps.
3. Hardy's method: top and bottom cue bids, ELC doubles, jumps in the other minor or 2 in the case of a 1 opening, Unusual NT.

Amalya Kearse's book on conventions has quite a few different ways. So does the Nicu Kantar four volume set.


I have absolutely no idea what a "RCO Two" is. Please help!!!

ELC Doubles I found with a Google search. For others like me who don't what what ECL Doubles are, it stands for Equal Level Conversion Doubles. I found it on the BridgeHands
website http://www.bridgehan...ion_Doubles.htm

Can you please give more detail for the items under point 3? Exactly how do they work and what do they show?

Thanks so far for the input received. I keep learning. There has to be plenty more examples.
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#11 User is online   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 13:13

Ah yes, fit jumps by responder and advancer can be good. Or at least I've had some good results with those :)

ahydra
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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 14:11

For overcaller I love this method,

(1M) 2M 2 highest suits so if (1)2 I am showing 's & 's.
(1x) 2N 2 lowest suits (minors over 1M, + m over 1m)
(1x) 3 highest unbid major and lowest unbid minor


(1) 3 shows 's and 's
(1) 3 shows 's and 's
(1) 3 shows 's and 's
(1) 3 shows 's and 's

It's not for everyone, some miss the natural 3 overcall but I find it more useful as the 2suited overcall and
have rarely missed having a natural 3 bid.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#13 User is offline   sasioc 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 14:55

3)A method I find useful that no one has mentioned yet is leaping (and non-leaping) michael's over a pre empt. This is where you overcall 4m over your opponent's pre empt to show either that minor and a specified or unspecified major or both majors, depending on what opener's suit is. You assume that you are not showing opener's suit and you are showing the minor you have bid if this is not opener's suit, ie

2 4 shows clubs and hearts
2 4 shows the majors
2 4 shows clubs and an unspecified major

The same idea applies if oppo opened 3x. All of these bids show strong 2 suiters - I play them as 15 points-ish upwards (obviously depending a great deal on the hand).


Some people play unusual no trump as showing a non-specific two suiter in some situations, eg (1d) 2nt as clubs and a major. I don't do this personally, but do play one strange thing, which is (1c) 3c as spades and diamonds.


There are also all sorts of defences to 1NT that show 2 suiters, eg landy, ASPTRO and various variations on that theme. Passed hand doubles of 1NT or doubles of a strong NT are played as showing 2 suiters by some (often showing 5m4M).


Defenses to strong 1 can also contain all sorts of two suited calls, a common one being 1NT for the minors and x for the majors. I personally play a version of suction when non-vul, which you may or may not consider to be a 2 suited bid :P



2) A method I play as responder (a variant of responder's reverse Flannery) is 1:2 to show 5 spades 4 hearts. It is non-forcing, allowing partner to pass with 6 clubs and no major fit. I play this because it can be hard to find your heart fit on these hands if you are not strong enough to bid 2 over your partner's 2 rebid. We had a very nice hand for it in the Azores, where I held something like Jxxxxx xxxxx x x as responder and managed to play in our 9 card heart fit when the field was off in some number of spades.
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#14 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 15:01

View Post32519, on 2012-January-22, 06:18, said:

How many ways are there for showing a 2 suited hand?

1) As opener?
2) As responder?
3) As overcaller?



Not mentioned but there are systems where 1d, 1h , 1s openings promise a 2 suited hand 100% of the time, canape style.
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#15 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 15:36

View Post32519, on 2012-January-22, 11:52, said:

I have absolutely no idea what a "RCO Two" is. Please help!!!

ELC Doubles I found with a Google search. For others like me who don't what what ECL Doubles are, it stands for Equal Level Conversion Doubles. I found it on the BridgeHands
website http://www.bridgehan...ion_Doubles.htm

Can you please give more detail for the items under point 3? Exactly how do they work and what do they show?

Thanks so far for the input received. I keep learning. There has to be plenty more examples.


RCO Twos uses bids at the two level to show two suited hands. RCO stands for rank, color, other, so 2 (I think - it's been a while) would show the majors or the minors, 2 the reds or the blacks, 2 the pointy or the round suits. It was part of Ron Klinger's "Power" system.

In Hardy's methods, a top and bottom cue bid shows the lowest and highest unbid, with the lower either longer or stronger or both. Over 1, 2 shows and , same shape. Over 1, 2 shows and . The ELC double shows the two higher unbid suits, the lower ranking longer or stronger. The jump shifts aren't used over 1M. See Hardy's Competitive Bidding With Two Suited Hands or Advanced Bidding for the 21st Century.
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#16 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-January-22, 23:32

View Postahydra, on 2012-January-22, 08:11, said:

As an overcaller, my preferred methods are Michaels/UNT (1M-2M = other M unspecified m; 1m-2m = both M; 1m-2NT = other m and unspecified M; 1M-2NT = both m), where the bid is "weak or strong".

ahydra


This post reminded me of another convention showing a 2 suited hand as an overcaller: Sandwich NT.

When the auction has gone: 1x (pass) 1y 1NT - 1NT here shows a 5-5 holding in the 2 unbid suits. More often looking for a sacrifice bid? I have my doubts about its effectiveness. Partner is already a passed hand. All you have succeeded in doing with this convention is roadmap the hand layout to declarer.

What are your experiences with the Sandwich NT convention?
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#17 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-23, 00:43

Heh. Some years ago, before I got into directing, playing with a novice partner, opponents came to our table discussing a Sandwich NT situation that had come up in their previous round. One player was describing the convention to his partner (briefly and incompletely, as it happened). Partner's eyes lit up when she heard this. The bidding goes 1-pass by me-1. Partner gets this look on her face, and she bids 1NT. I couldn't help it; I alerted. They asked, and I said "we haven't agreed it, but I'll bet she has the majors". She did, too, 4-4, and about seven points. I don't remember what happened after that, but they got a top board. :P
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Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#18 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-January-23, 01:42

View Post32519, on 2012-January-22, 23:32, said:

What are your experiences with the Sandwich NT convention?


I do not think that this convention is very popular. If you are not strong enough to double, or shapely enough to bid 2NT, you probably do not want to enter a live auction.
London, England
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#19 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-January-23, 03:46

Three similar yet different 2-suited opening bids can be placed alongside each other and compared for effectiveness.

1.) Tartan Twos can be weak 7-11 HCP (5-cards in the suit opened and 5-cards in a minor suit) or strong balanced 20-21 HCP http://www.pattayabr...Tartan-twos.htm
2.) Muiderberg Twos 5-10 HCP with 5-cards in the suit opened and at least 4-cards in a minor suit (having 5-cards in the minor suit as well is becoming the norm) http://en.wikipedia....berg_convention
3.) Lucas Twos (The only difference between Lucas Twos and Muiderberg Twos is that the second suit can be the other major when are opened)

I would love to hear from other players who have played Tartan Twos (or still do play Tartan Twos). How does this stack up e.g. when compared to the Multi 2 which contains the strong balanced hand pattern? Now your 2 is freed up for some other use as is the 2NT bid. What do you use these bids for now if you play Tartan Twos?

Just having a shot in the dark here to generate thoughts from other more experienced players. How about including the Multi 2 and Tartan Twos into your 2-level bids as follows

Multi 2 promising 1 of the following hand patterns:
1.) Natural weak 2 in promising 2 of the top 3 honours or 3 of the top 5 honours
2.) Weak 2 in either major
3.) The 4-4-4-1 hand pattern and 17-24 HCP as suggested by Zelandakh in this thread http://www.bridgebas...1-hand-pattern/

Tartan Twos/Lukas Twos/Muiderberg Twos promising 1 of the following hand patterns:
1.) 5-cards in the suit opened and 5-cards in a minor suit
2.) Possibility of holding 5+5 5-10 HCP when are opened
3.) Strong balanced hand 20-21 HCP

The 2NT bid which has been freed up can be used for anything you choose.

Any thoughts?
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#20 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-January-23, 04:59

There are many different 2-suited openings that can be applied as Opener. If you are interested in such methods then I recommend reading Chris Ryall's site which contains an extensive archive of weak (and some not-so-weak) 2 methods. There are also 2-suited possibilities for Opener with higher bids, such as using a 3NT opening to show certain 6-5 hands and the like. The system MAF also contains specialised bids for strong 2-suiters from memory and of course there is also MisIry from Ben (Inquiry). There are also a few possibilities for Opener in the later auction to show more than one suit in one go - a common one in this category would be the auction 2 - 2; 3M showing 4 cards in the major and 5+ diamonds.

For Responder the system matters quite alot. It is not uncommon playing a strong club for one or more of the positive responses to show 2-suiters. Naturally fit jumps are a specialised way of showing 2 suits. There is also Reverse Flannery. There are other possibilities that you might not consider too - the Paradox response structure of the Multi 2 is effectively a way of showing 2 suits at once when Responder bids 3 or more. These Paradox bids can also be played in other situations. Talking of other situations, the later auction also has further possibilities for Responder. A very common example of this is Smolen where 1NT - 2; 2 - 3M shows 4 cards in the major and 5 in the other major.

For Overcaller there are many different 2-suited methods available. David Stevenson's site has most of the more popular ones listed. Additionally 4NT (or indeed a 4 level cue) as an Overcall is usually played as an extreme 2-suiter. Raptor is also a 2-suited method, as well as Sandwich NT. In this vein I have used a double in a 2/1 auction as 2-suited without promising extra strength. The overcalling side can also employ fit jumps of course. Leaping (and non-Leaping) Michaels have already been mentioned. There is also Mathe (X majors, NT minors) over a strong artificial call plus a whole raft of additional 2-suited possibilities over a strong, artificial 1 or 1 opening.

To be honest, trying to document every single 2-suited call would be a practical impossibility. Better really to try and pick out specific categories and then to document along those lines. From your final post you might also consider adding a 4th system, Wilkosz, for comparison. A Wilkosz 2 opening shows a 5 card major and a 5 card minor; then 2M openings can be weak and natural. It does suffer from the disadvantage of being Brown-Sticker (or equivalent) though.
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#21 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-January-23, 07:09

If you admit brown stickers one of my partners and I play:

2C: Weak two in diamonds or 4/4 in H/S weak or gameforce or a strong singlesuiter in clubs or 20-21 bal or 28-29 bal

Etc. The 2D/H/S bids need to be 5/5 or better. 2NT includes the two suit combinations not otherwise covered.

Overcalling we play Roman Jump Overcalls ala Fout. So over 1D 2H shows hearts and spades a d 2S shows spades and clubs. The cuebid shows clubs and hearts. The inability to make a weak jump overcall is slightly annoying but given some of the WJOs that are otherwise made I am not sure I mind the loss that much.
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#22 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-January-28, 23:18

Inquiry's MisIry convention is another way of showing 2-suited hands.

Ben, can you please provide some more info on MisIry?
1.) What is the frequency of occurrence of the hand pattern?
2.) For the benefit of others wishing to know more, a) a short description of MisIry, or alternatively, b) a link where more info can be found.

Thanks
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