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Only one hand per thread ...but many questions

#1 User is offline   bd71 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 00:13



Several questions on this MATCHPOINTS hand:

1. Would you rebid a GF 3C with the South hand?

2. Assuming South does bid 3C, as North do you give any consideration to bidding 3D to angle for NT? If not with this hand, what changes would you make to consider it worth bidding 3D? (i.e. would one more spade spot and one fewer heart spot do it?)

3. If bidding goes 1S-1N; 3C-4C, what action do you take as South?

4. If you are playing in 5C, will matchpoint considerations that other tables may be in NT affect your play of the hand? Particularly, after first round of clubs goes 2/J/Q/A, how should you play the suit?
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#2 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 01:22

I think a good agreement is that responder's S1 after a jump rebid is meaningless (a relay) letting opener attempt to complete the description of his hand. Any other bid by responder is more directional. It works out pretty well on this particular hand...

1S-1N, 3C-3D, 3H so probably 5314

Now responder can rebid 3N. His hand does not mesh well.
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#3 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 02:40

1) I would jump shift
2) Hard to say what's best, especially since the club J/S is often on less than 4 clubs. I would be tempted to fudge with 3D, since we define the actions below 3N to be probes for the best game, and partner should be aware that I will frequently be aiming for NT.
3) I'm almost certainly going to be in slam, since I play a 4C bid by partner as being a strong slam move in clubs
4) I'm not going to guess what other players will do; I'll try and maximize my own result and beat the people in 5C. The play of the hand after the club to the J/Q/A is more interesting. How good are my opponents? How good do they think I am? Would they typically find the play of ducking the ace from Axx on the first trick in order to make it more likely for partner to score his T, or does the play of the ace pinpoint a 4-1 split coming? Or are they playing some spy vs spy?

Assuming good opponents, my inclination would be to play for 4-1 clubs since that is the one holding they would not have ducked the ace with for sure. I will cross to the diamond, run the 9 of clubs, and assuming 4-1 clubs (not covered), I'll then come to hand with a spade, ruff a spade with the 8, pitch a heart on K of diamonds, and finesse in clubs again. Alternatively, if I don't think the hearts are worse than 4-2, I can cash the AK to see if the Q falls before deciding what to pitch on the diamond, catering for 5-2 spades and the doubleton Q of hearts. I think I would be disinclined to cash the AK of hearts at the table if I had the 4-1 club split, though.
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#4 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 03:41

Standard leak of standard. If you are going to play this system the best is to jump to 3C and partner taking into account that you could have 4 or even 3 cards (AQxxxx AKx x AKx). So temporary solution is to bid 3C an hope partner bid 3D knowing what hands 3C contains. You can't play standard being forced to jump 3C on various trashy 3-4 cards club holding and have partner assuming you are always 5-5 because you usually aren't.
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#5 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 05:35

1. Would you rebid a GF 3C with the South hand?

Yes.


2. Assuming South does bid 3C, as North do you give any consideration to bidding 3D to angle for NT? If not with this hand, what changes would you make to consider it worth bidding 3D? (i.e. would one more spade spot and one fewer heart spot do it?)

Either be optimistic and bid 4C (I would) or be pessimistic and bid 3NT. 3 should show long diamonds. Of course, in those inferior systems (eheh) where 3C can be made on 3 cards I'd bid 3NT like 110% of the time.


3. If bidding goes 1S-1N; 3C-4C, what action do you take as South?

4NT blah blah 6C.


4. If you are playing in 5C, will matchpoint considerations that other tables may be in NT affect your play of the hand? Particularly, after first round of clubs goes 2/J/Q/A, how should you play the suit?

I would never play 5C at MPs lol. Anyway, 6C is a bad contract, but this isn't rocket science. Now I need some luck and finessing the way back seems to be the percentage place.
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 05:57

1. Yes.
2. Yes. Give me an extra club instead of a red suit card and we are in the ball park. Note that the method that straube suggests is usually called a grope rather than a relay. Gropes are typically effective in 3 level auctions where we are often unsure where to go.
3. 4 RKCB. When partner shows 1 with the queen I will be in 6.
4. Without giving it alot of thought, CSG's line looks reasonable.
(-: Zel :-)
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#7 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 08:05

We get yet another SJS post ( see my first signature post below ) .
I'd be in the slam too.
Upon seeing dummy, I'm not sure if I can play it as well as Gibson.

My auction would be a little different than Zel's ( I have Responder "show" rather than " be asked " w / support and no interest in :

1S - 1NTF!
3C - ??
......... The following 4 bids show support or not ... and NO interest in :
......... 3D
......... 3H
......... 3S
......... 3NT
......... 4S

......... The next 4 bids would "show" RKC for w/ 4+support :
......... 4C! = 0
......... 4D! = 1
......... 4H! = 2 - Q
.........4NT! = 2 + Q

6C ( after 1 key card is "shown" )
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 08:32

I think you can improve that Don. For example you could play that 4 shows exactly 4 clubs and 4/4/4NT/5 show 5 card support + key cards. Or you could keep the existing scheme but only for 5 card support and use 3 followed by 4 to show 4 card support. Both of these cater to Opener having a manufactured 3 call without giving up too much.
(-: Zel :-)
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#9 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 08:51

I'm interested now:

Let's suppose 3D can be a grope. Clearly you can also hold x/xxx/AQxxxx/xxx and bid 3D.

So if the auction goes
1S 1N
3C 3D
3N

doesn't north owe south a 4C bid anyway? And, especially at MP, won't south still bid 3N over 3D (even though he thought about rebidding 3S after j/s on his 3 card club suit) with like AK10xxx / AKQ / x / Kxx? So the 3N bid can't promise real clubs here.

Also, for kickbackers who are also MP gurus: do you play that an immediate 4N over 4C is to play?

And for non-kickbackers: Do you play that 4N over 4C is to play, and opener must cuebid to set clubs? I think there is merit in this.
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#10 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 12:02

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-January-19, 08:32, said:

I think you can improve that Don. For example you could play that 4 shows exactly 4 clubs and 4/4/4NT/5 show 5 card support + key cards. Or you could keep the existing scheme but only for 5 card support and use 3 followed by 4 to show 4 card support. Both of these cater to Opener having a manufactured 3 call without giving up too much.

I like your improvements...( the 4 vs 5+ card support ) .

If 3C* = "may be artificial", I too use 3D! as an "asking" relay ( only if interest in and no interest in the Major).

1M - 1NTF!
3C* - 3D!
??
..3M! = long M suit; was artificial
..3oM = suit is real

If Opener's suit is real, your 4C = 4 cards or 4D! and higher "shows" key cards w/ 5+ card support.
Don Stenmark
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#11 User is offline   S2000magic 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 12:25

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-January-19, 03:41, said:

. . . you could have . . . 3 cards (AQxxxx AKx x AKx).

I'd open that 2: as little as K x (x) in partner's hand makes game, and he'd pass 1 if that's all he has.

Back to the original questions:

1. Yes.
2. Yes, 3.
3. Probably 5, but I won't be overjoyed.
4. Essentially, CSG's first line: finesse the 9 (restricted choice), to the A, A, trump a spade with the 8, finesse in clubs.
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#12 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 12:58

in a standardish natural system, my suggestion is that any raise that bypass 3Nt of a possibly fake jump shift/fake reverse show tolerance for opener first suit.

1D--1S--2H--4H = at least 2D
1S--1Nt--3D--4D = at least 2S
1D-1H-2S-4S = at least 2D
etc.

With Chapi this hand give us problems.

http://bridge.downag...bod=1SP1NP2NP3C

3D (5314, 18-22)--3S (keyc C)
4C (30)----4S (bypassing Q of trumps and K of S so asking for K of H)
5C (K of H but no extras here we know partner is stiff S)---Pass.

but the same hand with the Q of H & we are getting overboard. IMO its tough to stop at 3nt here.
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#13 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 13:06

I would definitely rebid 3 with South and raise with North. Probably I would end in 6 at matchpoints but that is a result of the level of duplication and others in this thread who stop in 3NT would also stop there if South had AKJxx AKx KJxx instead.
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#14 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 13:27

I have previously described a method I learned as Jeff's Magic Elixir, named after Jeff Reubens of the Bridge World.

3 is 3 way: all gf.

Either both blacks, or a massive 1 suiter in spades or precisely 4 hearts (allowing a js into 3 to promise 5...this helps a great deal when responder has 3 card heart support, and cannot know, in standard methods, whether it is safe to raise what will often be a 4 card suit.

The corollary of this method is that it is unsafe for responder to raise clubs...a suit in which opener might even be void and will often be short. Responder can either raise spades, bid 3N (rare indeed) or, most commonly, relay with 3 over which:

3 shows 5+=4 in the majors

3 massive one suiter

3N both blacks, willing to play 3N, thus usually 5224/5134/5314

4 really wants to play a black suit...usually 5-5 or better in the blacks.


On this hand, we reach 3N, over which responder has a tough decision....there are slam positive aspects to the hand, but the majority of the hcp are in the reds, the trump fit is known to be 4-4, and we'd really like to have at least the club 10 to provide internal texture. I don't know what I would do, since I know S's hand. At mps, however, I suspect I would opt for 3N and at imps make a try, since 5 rates to be decent even if 3N is better, and there is some chance that we could reach a slam on other layouts (or even this one....tho when both partners have weak trumps, neither is likely to be aggressive).
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#15 User is offline   bd71 

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Posted 2012-January-19, 14:05

View Postmikeh, on 2012-January-19, 13:27, said:

I have previously described a method I learned as Jeff's Magic Elixir, named after Jeff Reubens of the Bridge World.

3 is 3 way: all gf.

Either both blacks, or a massive 1 suiter in spades or precisely 4 hearts (allowing a js into 3 to promise 5...this helps a great deal when responder has 3 card heart support, and cannot know, in standard methods, whether it is safe to raise what will often be a 4 card suit.

The corollary of this method is that it is unsafe for responder to raise clubs...a suit in which opener might even be void and will often be short. Responder can either raise spades, bid 3N (rare indeed) or, most commonly, relay with 3 over which:

3 shows 5+=4 in the majors

3 massive one suiter

3N both blacks, willing to play 3N, thus usually 5224/5134/5314

4 really wants to play a black suit...usually 5-5 or better in the blacks.


On this hand, we reach 3N, over which responder has a tough decision....there are slam positive aspects to the hand, but the majority of the hcp are in the reds, the trump fit is known to be 4-4, and we'd really like to have at least the club 10 to provide internal texture. I don't know what I would do, since I know S's hand. At mps, however, I suspect I would opt for 3N and at imps make a try, since 5 rates to be decent even if 3N is better, and there is some chance that we could reach a slam on other layouts (or even this one....tho when both partners have weak trumps, neither is likely to be aggressive).


Every time I promise I've added enough artificiality to my bidding, you come along with another really useful concept...

Are there any key modifications needing to be made over 1H-1N-3C?
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#16 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-January-20, 23:23

what´s that mike? keep your 2 suiters alive, 2NT is GF you don´t need to put your 5-4s or massive one suiter in 3


1M-1NT
2NT-3 then

3 = 5M-4M
3 = 5-4 if opened 1 or massive 1 suiter
3 = massive one suiter in spades if opened 1 or 5-4 if opened 1
3NT = 18-19 balanced.

The only thing that isn´t there is the 5-4 hands that need to be redeclared with 3. But other than that, all 1M-3x bids are 5-5 at least.
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#17 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-January-21, 06:18

After 1-1NT;3, I'd bid 4, showing club support and good diamonds. I'd prefer both to be a bit better, but this seems a better description that 4. I think 3 shows more diamonds and fewer clubs.

On this occasion, I expect I'd get to the 10% slam.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#18 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2012-October-03, 05:03

I am pretty sure Jeff Rubens does not bid 3 on this hand. (Jeffs Elixir). It's by starting low on 5431 shapes that he is able to use 3 as a thee way bid without butchering the club suit.

He has spent over 40 years trying to get Bridge World readers to rebid 2 on this hand pattern and strength. You could make it a point stronger and I am pretty sure he still recommends it.

I strongly agree. On this hand, partner raises to 3, you bid 3 and partner bids 3NT. You are well placed over everything other than pass: over 2 you bid 2NT non-forcing, over 2 you can bid 4 (splinter) and over 2 or 2NT you bid 3 describing your exact shape.

And if partner passes 2 that may not be so bad. Opposite a misfit with usually one spade, you will often not make game, since partner is typically 1453, 1444 or 2344 and very weak when he passes. If he is 1543, well that's just too bad.
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#19 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2012-October-03, 05:48

The answer to number 4 is probably the most interesting, since it should be clear that you have to force to game with opener's hand, you have to keep 3NT as a possibility with responder hand and I would have driven to 6 with opener's hand.

I think the finesse is the normal play, so I'd go for the drop.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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